Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 十二国記 discussion

十二国記 discussion

Discussions on Japan's history or Japanese books!

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Wed 02.18.2009 12:35 pm

@Garappachiさん: Do I understand you well when I read this: the writer is trying to evoke a more personal involvement of the reader by using (and repeating )this particular ~のだ structure?
That does make a lot of sense to me!

@Rich: are you playing cards and correcting Japanese at the same time? :mrgreen: What card game do you play? On line, I reckon?
まっすぐに立ちあがると髪を枝にすくわれた。彼女は土を踏んだ四肢とは別の二本の腕で、それをほどいた
When she got up, her hair got caught in the branches. She trod the earth with four limbs and using the other two, her arms, she untangled it.

She untangled it with two arms other than the four limbs she trod the ground with.

Hmm, I get your point. I was trying to convey some of the surprise of the protagonist about her limbs and what she can do with it (this is what I interpret from the original).
But the 土を踏んだ四肢とは別の二本の bit is actually modifying the 腕 (arms) isn't it....


About this sentence:
....と彼女は考えられるわけでもなく思い出していた。
"She wasn’t really thinking this, but remembering it"

考えられる is a potential form, right?
would this translation be more like the original:
she was not really (exactly) able to think this, but she was remembering it....?
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Thu 02.19.2009 10:24 pm

p22columns7-8
重苦しいものが垂れこめているような、そんなふうに感じられてならない

ふうに感じる makes sense, and I presume what precedes is a description of the mood, but I can't figure out what this form means with the ならない.
Last edited by Gundaetiapo on Thu 02.19.2009 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gundaetiapo
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 11:26 am
Location: New England
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Thu 02.19.2009 10:49 pm

You have the teen edition, right? I'm having trouble finding that passage in the adult edition I have. How does the paragraph start? Is this in numbered section 1 or 2 of chapter 1?

Edit: I don't think てならない is significantly different from (though certainly less common than) てはならない.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Thu 02.19.2009 10:53 pm

richvh wrote:You have the teen edition, right? I'm having trouble finding that passage in the adult edition I have. How does the paragraph start? Is this in numbered section 1 or 2 of chapter 1?


Half way through chapter 1 section 2. Paragraph begins "常には緩やかにこみちを…". Not sure if this is the teen or adult version.
Gundaetiapo
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 11:26 am
Location: New England
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Thu 02.19.2009 11:15 pm

Okay, I found it; my page and line numbering matches yours after all. (Teen edition is in 2 volumes, with internal illustrations; adult edition has no illustrations save the maps.)

You left off the start of the sentence: 薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂れこめているような、そんな風に感じられてならない。

Something like "Despite being slightly cloudy, it couldn't be thought of as gloomy."
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby becki_kanou » Fri 02.20.2009 1:03 am

richvh wrote:Okay, I found it; my page and line numbering matches yours after all. (Teen edition is in 2 volumes, with internal illustrations; adult edition has no illustrations save the maps.)

You left off the start of the sentence: 薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂れこめているような、そんな風に感じられてならない。

Something like "Despite being slightly cloudy, it couldn't be thought of as gloomy."


Actually, this ならない is used to describe strong feelings , and is similar to English "can't take", or "can't stand" or in this case "can't shake the feeling".

Even though it was only slightly cloudy Yoka couldn't shake the feeling of something heavy and oppressive bearing down on her.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Fri 02.20.2009 4:53 am

Chapt 1, section 2, page 22 line 3 to 6:
したがって蓉可は蓬山に住んで長いわけではけっしてない。崇高山での修行を終え、蓬廬宮に移って半月だが、その彼女にも今日の風はなにかしら奇妙に思われた。
常にはゆるやかに小径を流れていく風が、今日に限って強く速い。奇岩の上空へ吹き上げ、かと思えば奇岩にそって吹き下ろして、いたるところで渦(うず)を巻いている。空模様もなにかしらすっきりしなかった。薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂(た)れこめているような、そんなふうに感じられてならない。
「なにかの予兆でしょうか」


This is how I "feel" after reading those lines:
........蓬廬宮に移って半月だが、その彼女にも今日の風はなにかしら奇妙に思われた。
Youka just moved to 蓬廬宮 less than a month, however, a new girl like her, could sense that the wind blew on that day was very very unusual......

空模様もなにかしらすっきりしなかった....... (not very sure about this sentence)
Somehow, even the sky did not look good (???)

薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂れこめているような、そんなふうに感じられてならない....
Despite it was a little cloudy, Youka didn't understand why such oppressive feeling kept trickling down on her (??)

なにかの予兆でしょうか Is it a sign of something? (Is this some kind of omen?)
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Fri 02.20.2009 11:31 am

katafei wrote:@Garappachiさん: Do I understand you well when I read this: the writer is trying to evoke a more personal involvement of the reader by using (and repeating )this particular ~のだ structure?

If it is ~のだとs instead, I can say YES! ^^
Garappachi
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon 06.11.2007 6:52 am
Location: 関西
Native language: にほんご
Gender: Male

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Fri 02.20.2009 12:32 pm

Obviously I should have reread more than that one sentence before venturing an opinion.

SS wrote:
Chapt 1, section 2, page 22 line 3 to 6:
したがって蓉可は蓬山に住んで長いわけではけっしてない。崇高山での修行を終え、蓬廬宮に移って半月だが、その彼女にも今日の風はなにかしら奇妙に思われた。
常にはゆるやかに小径を流れていく風が、今日に限って強く速い。奇岩の上空へ吹き上げ、かと思えば奇岩にそって吹き下ろして、いたるところで渦(うず)を巻いている。空模様もなにかしらすっきりしなかった。薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂(た)れこめているような、そんなふうに感じられてならない。
「なにかの予兆でしょうか」


This is how I "feel" after reading those lines:
........蓬廬宮に移って半月だが、その彼女にも今日の風はなにかしら奇妙に思われた。
Youka just moved to 蓬廬宮 less than a month, however, a new girl like her, could sense that the wind blew on that day was very very unusual......


It had been but half a month since she had moved to Houryokyuu(?) (don't have my book with me, so can't track down where the furigana is given), but even she could sense that there was something weird about that day's wind.

空模様もなにかしらすっきりしなかった....... (not very sure about this sentence)
Somehow, even the sky did not look good (???)

There was something vaguely disturbing about how the sky looked, too.

薄曇りにもかかわらず、重苦しいものが垂れこめているような、そんなふうに感じられてならない....
Despite it was a little cloudy, Youka didn't understand why such oppressive feeling kept trickling down on her (??)

Despite there being but few clouds in the sky, she couldn't help but feel that something ominous was hanging over her.

なにかの予兆でしょうか Is it a sign of something? (Is this some kind of omen?)

This is spot on, I think.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Fri 02.20.2009 2:36 pm

I have not reached this bit yet, I'm still on page 18...

But did you guys find the post where I divided the text into paragraphs? It's a little earlier in this thread...
It might make communication a little bit easier.

Also: how about making next chat Sunday the 8th? Is everybody fine with that?




(@Garappachiさん、はい、わかりました!ありがとう。^^)
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Sat 02.21.2009 8:37 am

ok for march 8...
It will give me some more time to catch up :D
User avatar
caroline
 
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat 03.11.2006 8:47 am
Location: Paris
Native language: Français

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Sat 02.21.2009 10:06 am

それをよく覚えておおき.

(My division: par 4 line 4 :mrgreen: or about line 8 of page 18....)

I'm a bit puzzled by the おおき...Is this simply 多き? or 大きい without the ending い as we saw with 白 earlier?
Does it mean something like:

'all these things you have to remember as well' ?
Or 'you have to remember this very well'....?
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Sat 02.21.2009 10:53 am

Please, give more context (paragraph start is usually sufficient) so others can more easily find what you're asking about. Page 18, line 4 starts 大きく in my edition.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
Posts: 6450
Joined: Thu 09.29.2005 10:35 pm

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Sat 02.21.2009 10:59 am

Then in your version it's line 5

But did you guys find the post where I divided the text into paragraphs? It's a little earlier in this thread...
It might make communication a little bit easier.
User avatar
katafei
 
Posts: 1766
Joined: Sun 07.09.2006 9:56 am
Location: A'veen
Native language: Dutch; Female

Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sat 02.21.2009 12:11 pm

It's the verb おく verb. I'm not sure if the extra お is honorific or stylistic.
Gundaetiapo
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 03.30.2007 11:26 am
Location: New England
Native language: English
Gender: Male

PreviousNext

Return to History and Literature Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest