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十二国記 discussion

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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Sat 02.21.2009 2:31 pm

Gundaetiapo nailed it. This おおき is お置き. I think we'd need a native speaker to weigh in on the significance of the mix of plain speech and honorifics the old lady - a very high ranking 女仙 - uses to the newborn 女怪, 汕子.

「姓を賜るのは、お前の使命が重いからだ。それをよく覚えておおき」

"You are granted a surname because your mission is important. Always remember that."
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Sun 02.22.2009 7:29 am

richvh wrote:「姓を賜るのは、お前の使命が重いからだ。それをよく覚えておおき」

文体は「~からだ。」「~おおき(お+動詞の語幹)」ですので、常体になっていますね。
※常体の中で、聞き手以外に対して使う敬語は問題ありません。


姓を「賜る」
姓を「もらう」の謙譲語。姓を与える人(または もの?)に対して、へりくだった言い方です。
→換言すると、話し手に対しての「敬語」ではなく、姓を与える人(または もの?)に対しての「敬語」です。

それをよく覚えて「おおき」
お+動詞の語幹(verb stem)
形としては敬語です。
しかし、実際には、上の者が下の者(特に子供)に助言や催促をする時などに使われる、ちょっと古い言い方ですね。
感触としては
それをよく覚えておきなさい。
ぐらいのニュアンスです。


お+動詞の語幹の例としては・・・

しっかり、お聞き。(≒しっかり聞きなさい。 ≠しっかり聞け。)
しっかり、おし。(≒しっかり、しなさい。 ≠しっかり、せよ。)
はよ、お食べ。(≒はやく食べなさい。 ≠はやく食べろ。)

など、いろいろとあります。

※相手を敬うニュアンスはありません。むしろ、上からものを言っているような感じです。
※「お+動詞の語幹」は「命令」を和らげる働きをしているのですね。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Tue 02.24.2009 6:25 am

Garappachiさん, thank you once again for your time and patience.

Sometimes, I enjoy watching ancient series JP anime.
I think, ancient series can be good in the sense that ancient ways of talking can get you closer, not only wanting to know about cultural aspects, but the historical kind of “mood”. Many people may know this, I think, “十二国記” has many fascinating characters playing main roles in the whole series. They include characters from modern time and ancient time. When I first watched the DVD a few years’ back, during the episode where Youko broke Keiki’s seal, and accepted him as her Kirin. After Keiki was saved, he thanked Youko and said “ありがたい”. And, whenever Youko asked “anything else?” he would answer “ございません or ございます”. I didn’t even know what “ありがたい” or “ございます・ございません” was during that time, until I joined TJP and read all these thread [url]http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=ありがたい[/url] and these
People from the palaces always used “deviancy” words (as I was unfamiliar with those words), but am now slowly picking up words or phrases from the novel series.
(I know it has nothing to do with 二級, but it's just fun and enjoyable to learn some.)

I think Katafei has listed quite a number of grammar points in the first round, thanks for doing that.
I have spotted some too, wanting to compare notes in 完全マスター and post them here, but I’m running out of time to organize them properly before posting. I’ll do that in the next few events.

Thank you all, once again.

-----
I have problem comprehending this sentence (Page 18, last sentence):
石段を上りきり、陽光の中に飛び出し、刺《さ》すような光をこぼしながらまっすぐ木に駆けよった。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Fri 02.27.2009 12:19 pm

SS wrote:I have problem comprehending this sentence (Page 18, last sentence):
石段を上りきり、陽光の中に飛び出し、刺《さ》すような光をこぼしながらまっすぐ木に駆けよった。

石段を上る。
石段を上り終える。(+「最後まで上る」というアスペクト)
石段を上りきる。(+「最後まで上る」というアスペクト+「努力を伴って」というニュアンス)

石段を上りきり、陽光の中に飛び出す。
石段は陽が当たらず、陰になっていたのでしょう。その陰になっていた所から、陽の当たる(上り終えた)所へ勢いよく出て行く。
ということですね。

刺すような光
太陽光線を針のような物に喩えた表現ですね。陽射しが強いことを表現したのでしょう。

刺すような光をこぼしながら
刺すような光を(体から)こぼしながら
体に当たった沢山の光が、まるで大雨に打たれた体を伝う雨水のように(体から)「こぼれた」のでしょう。比喩的な表現ですね。
太陽光線をお風呂のシャワーに見立てると分かりやすいかもしれません。

まっすぐ木に駆けよった。
文意としては、強い陽射しを避けるために木陰に走っていった。ということですね。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Fri 02.27.2009 4:34 pm

I have problem comprehending this sentence (Page 18, last sentence):
石段を上りきり、陽光の中に飛び出し、刺《さ》すような光をこぼしながらまっすぐ木に駆けよった。


Climbing the stone steps all the way to the top and leaping out into the sunlight, she raced to the tree while shaking off sunlight that seemed to stab her.

Contrary to what Garappachi said, it isn't the tree's shade she seeks, but rather what is (or, at least should be; I need to re-read that passage to see if it was gone already when she emerged, or if that happened later) hanging from the tree that she is racing for.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Garappachi » Fri 02.27.2009 6:32 pm

richvh wrote:Contrary to what Garappachi said, it isn't the tree's shade she seeks, but rather what is (or, at least should be; I need to re-read that passage to see if it was gone already when she emerged, or if that happened later) hanging from the tree that she is racing for.

Well, I don't have the copy and don't grasp the context at all.
I wish you commented above before I did. :wink:
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Fri 02.27.2009 7:19 pm

Sorry, I didn't notice that little postscript in SS's post.

The next couple of paragraphs tell what her goal is.

 彼女は根に実った。長く細い根に対して、木は低く大きかった。苔むした岩盤の上、空を背景に伸びやかに枝を張った木の、白い白い枝には金の果実が一つ実っている。
「泰麒」
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Tue 03.03.2009 11:07 pm

Garappachiさん、Richさん、
おはようございます。 
返事がおそくなってすみません。 ご親切にお教えいただきありがとうございました。
知りたいと思うことがいっぱいあります、しかし、私の理解力低いです。ときどき、簡単にメモを取っておきます。書いておかないと、忘れてしまいますからね。 >_<''


わがウィキチャットスケジュール

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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Thu 03.05.2009 3:50 pm

皆さん
Are we still on for next Sunday, GMT 13 o'clock?

Did you guys have a look at the paragraph division I made earlier? Does that sound helpful?
We are all but images of our time
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Thu 03.05.2009 8:10 pm

Good morning, Katafei.

Thanks for spending your time to arrange that. I've printed out the list for easy reference. Btw, maybe for the next few events, just state the page, from line X to line Z will do, どうでしょう?

I can make it on this coming Sunday (8th March, GMT13.00) actually, is everyone okay with this day?
(I'll edit the chatroom schedule if everyone can make it. Sorry about that!)
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Fri 03.06.2009 3:29 am

Hi SS,

the thing is, we all have different versions so the pages don't match.
That will probably be more of a prob as we progress. Hence the parargraph numbers ^^

CU Sunday ^^
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Fri 03.06.2009 6:35 am

Hi Kat,
OK, ok, thank you. I will have to get a magnifying glass, the words are just too small. ^^;

See you on 8th March, Sunday, GMT13:00
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Fri 03.06.2009 2:25 pm

Hello, everyone
Unwillingly, I might be a little late on sunday... :oops:
as I'm the one starting, I'll post the translation, kanji, vocabulary, grammar (if any) on the JLPT十二国記 thread before sunday 13.00 GMT
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby katafei » Fri 03.06.2009 2:40 pm

Don't worry about it too much. It's more like a general discussion anyway.
Any idea about what time you'll be able to log on?
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Sat 03.07.2009 6:05 am

Thanks,
I should be 30-40 mn late.
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