Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - 10,000 hours of japanese listening

10,000 hours of japanese listening

Japanese, general discussion on the language

10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby kentaku_sama » Sat 04.11.2009 1:24 am

I heard this from a website called "all japanese all the time" IT said that if you listen to japanese Every time you get free time, you'll quickly become fluent, and understand soon. I know that you do , of course, need to know vocab and grammar, but I guess he's talking about listening and trying to understand it, and do this all the time. Watch anime, if you don't understand a words, no matter how hard you listen, just forget it and be happy, big deal you don't understand it because you probably haven't studies the vocab or grammar or heard of those phrases yet. If you can't understand a particular word, look that up in a dictionary. I guess..
After all, you know of the whole "Native speak factor", well if you start off trying to hear and comprehend what natives say in anime or dramas or something from japan, well you've already know what they sound like. :mrgreen:
Beware: This will be HARD I imagine at first, but eventually you'll be able to hear and understand things without trying.
kentaku_sama
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri 11.21.2008 2:21 am
Native language: English

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby nukemarine » Sat 04.11.2009 4:33 am

There's a thread about that site and discussion of methods he espouses already.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12377
nukemarine
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed 10.10.2007 5:33 am

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 04.11.2009 9:28 am

The main thing is that listening to Japanese that is mostly incomprehensible is going to do very little for your language ability.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 04.11.2009 11:54 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:The main thing is that listening to Japanese that is mostly incomprehensible is going to do very little for your language ability.


Listen to Yudan, he knows whereof he speaks.

Little kids can learn this way, but once you're past the critical period, it's not going to do much good. It would probably be more beneficial to listen to material aimed at non-native speakers, at least in the beginning. After you get used to that you can work your way up to native level materials.

You seem to be looking for a quick fix, but unfortunately there isn't one. Learning a language as different from your native language as Japanese is will take a lot of time and effort.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby astaroth » Sat 04.11.2009 12:17 pm

becki_kanou wrote:Little kids can learn this way, but once you're past the critical period, it's not going to do much good. It would probably be more beneficial to listen to material aimed at non-native speakers, at least in the beginning. After you get used to that you can work your way up to native level materials.

I would also like to add that little kids learn it this way also because there are teachers, aka adults, who constantly correct them. It's still surprising to hear a 3 years old child speak grammatically complex sentences, but still they didn't get there in one night. There are steps between non-speaking and speaking.
I was very close to a couple of friends of mine who add a child. I used to see them almost every weekend so I noticed the evolution of language, the child first was speaking using only nouns and we adults fill the gaps and often offered the correct sentence until the child started using verbs usually wrong but we correct them. Doing that every day is like having a teacher 24/7, well an incredibly patient one I might add :)
ー 流光 ー

   花地世
小  見獄の
林  かの中
一  な上は
茶   の 
User avatar
astaroth
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon 12.22.2008 5:08 am
Location: Amherst, MA
Native language: Italiano「伊語」

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 04.11.2009 12:32 pm

astaroth wrote:I would also like to add that little kids learn it this way also because there are teachers, aka adults, who constantly correct them.


This is actually a common misconception; correction has next to nothing to do with a child's learning their initial language (of course correction is important in getting them to speak the educated dialect once they've learned to talk). Children learn to speak whether or not they are corrected, and correction is usually ineffective because the child's brain is wired to learn language inductively, not explicitly.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby astaroth » Sat 04.11.2009 12:36 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Children learn to speak whether or not they are corrected, and correction is usually ineffective because the child's brain is wired to learn language inductively, not explicitly.

One thing that always surprises me is when they switch from calling themselves using the third person or their name to use the correct first person. (Hope this sentence makes sense though ...)
ー 流光 ー

   花地世
小  見獄の
林  かの中
一  な上は
茶   の 
User avatar
astaroth
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon 12.22.2008 5:08 am
Location: Amherst, MA
Native language: Italiano「伊語」

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 04.11.2009 12:52 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
astaroth wrote:I would also like to add that little kids learn it this way also because there are teachers, aka adults, who constantly correct them.


This is actually a common misconception; correction has next to nothing to do with a child's learning their initial language (of course correction is important in getting them to speak the educated dialect once they've learned to talk). Children learn to speak whether or not they are corrected, and correction is usually ineffective because the child's brain is wired to learn language inductively, not explicitly.


You beat me to it. I was just about to post almost this exact same thing.....
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
User avatar
becki_kanou
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
Location: Hyogo, Japan
Skype chat: yes_becki
Native language: U.S. English, 米語
Gender: Female

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby spin13 » Sat 04.11.2009 5:12 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Children learn to speak whether or not they are corrected, and correction is usually ineffective because the child's brain is wired to learn language inductively, not explicitly.

An interesting look at things like this can be found here:
When do people learn languages?
Innate abilities aside, children have a number of powerful advantages: Their peers are nastier. Embarrassment is a prime motivating factor for human beings. Dealing with a French waiter is nothing compared with the vicious reception in store for a child who speaks funny.
You're probably not as smart as you think.
Unskilled and Unaware
spin13
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed 04.06.2005 9:38 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby RRFTP » Sat 04.11.2009 5:57 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about it. It seems unconventional to say the least, but there are some good methods there. I have a lot of free time when I'm not at work, and even my job permits me to listen to music, so I guess if I'm listening to some Japanese lessons or something...

This seems like the method for me, haha. Involved without feeling involved. I usually keep on music softly in the background when I'm perusing the internets, so I just changed it to anime. I'm not sure what it's supposed to do, but I can pick out a few words that I hear repeatedly. Couple that with the "hardcore" studying I've been doing on the alphabet(s) and things and it seems like a recipe for at least some success over time.
I'm really bad at this stuff.
User avatar
RRFTP
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat 04.11.2009 4:05 am

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 04.11.2009 9:58 pm

spin13 wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:Children learn to speak whether or not they are corrected, and correction is usually ineffective because the child's brain is wired to learn language inductively, not explicitly.

An interesting look at things like this can be found here:
When do people learn languages?
Innate abilities aside, children have a number of powerful advantages: Their peers are nastier. Embarrassment is a prime motivating factor for human beings. Dealing with a French waiter is nothing compared with the vicious reception in store for a child who speaks funny.


"interesting" in the same way that Flat Earth and Intelligent Design are "interesting".
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby spin13 » Sun 04.12.2009 7:04 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:"interesting" in the same way that Flat Earth and Intelligent Design are "interesting".

I'm curious as to which parts you find objectionable? The sensationalist quote or the entire piece? For an editorial with the basic thrust of "People learn languages to the extent they have to or want to,*" which my experience living in Japan has found to be basically true, I thought it was rather entertaining. The only portion with any amount of citations (second language learning in children) is the one section which I have no experience or knowledge to judge, so I'm curious about your opinion.

-Eric

*Want to learn, rather than want to know
You're probably not as smart as you think.
Unskilled and Unaware
spin13
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed 04.06.2005 9:38 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 04.12.2009 9:25 am

spin13 wrote: The only portion with any amount of citations (second language learning in children) is the one section which I have no experience or knowledge to judge, so I'm curious about your opinion.


His main problem is the very common confusion between language acquisition and language learning. He talks about how children get teased by their peers for using "wrong" language but that's not language acquisition. That's people who have already acquired language struggling to conform their speech to the educated or standard dialect.

His main point seems to be that children learn language because they are highly motivated to, but this doesn't explain the so-called "poverty of input" problem; the fact that the language input children are getting during their acquisition phase is full of false starts, errors, stutters, and other such features, and that they're somehow able to figure out rules of grammar inductively in a way that no adult can.

He is correct that children will not become bilingual without some effort on the part of the parents, and that children will learn whatever language they are exposed to the most (in fact, what will be learned is a combination of the various speech styles heard; this is one reason why language changes over time, because the inductive nature of child language acquisition from multiple sources ensures that no two people speak in exactly the same way). If he thinks this means Chomsky is wrong, though, it just shows he doesn't understand Chomsky's theories. There has been a tendency for people to go too far in the "nativist" theory, but the basic idea that human brains are genetically hard-wired with the ability and propensity to learn language is pretty much beyond dispute at this point.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby monkeykoder » Sun 04.12.2009 11:11 am

I'll agree you can't learn Japanese just by listening to it. However it is absolutely necessary to listen to it to learn it. I find some of the most enjoyable experiences for me (who doesn't know or talk to any native speakers) is listening to some show and realising that I didn't read the subtitles for a significant amount of time (for me like 5-6 sentences (hey I'm a beginner kinda sorta)) because I just understood what they were saying.
monkeykoder
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Tue 05.13.2008 1:45 am
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: 10,000 hours of japanese listening

Postby spin13 » Sun 04.12.2009 11:47 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:post

Thank you for your response.
You're probably not as smart as you think.
Unskilled and Unaware
spin13
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed 04.06.2005 9:38 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Next

Return to Japanese General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 10 guests