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お or ご

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Re: お or ご

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.20.2009 5:34 pm

Are you sure ? In "yonde kudasai", "yonde" is not a noun. The reason why I say this is that when you use the "yomi" in place of "yonde" (I don't remember how we call it, but you know, when it means "and"), it is not a noun. Maybe these two masu stem used instead of the te form have nothing to do with each other, but it would be a strange coincidence. However it's true that the use of ni seems to prove your point.
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Re: お or ご

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.20.2009 5:36 pm

Though, sorry but is 読んで not a masu stem? And that's kind of a reason why there is no particles attached to it.

... which makes me think about whether in sentences like 〜し始める, is there a "hidden" を ...
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Re: お or ご

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.20.2009 5:55 pm

astaroth wrote:Though, sorry but is 読んで not a masu stem? And that's kind of a reason why there is no particles attached to it.

... which makes me think about whether in sentences like 〜し始める, is there a "hidden" を ...


There's only a single masu stem per verb, so here it is simply the te form, which is a verbal form (interesting enough, it comes from masu stem + te, i.e "yomite"). As for masu stem+hajimeru, again to me this masu stem is a verb, not a noun, so no "wo" implied (to me at least).

Now, maybe a coincidence again, but "hajimeru" and "iru" (when following the te form) are both auxiliary verbs, so again, it seems like there's a relation between masu stem and te form (i.e each can be followed by auxiliary verbs). Don't get me wrong : I'm just making observations, I don't have the knowledged required to explain these phenomenons.

[edit] as for "masu stem" (be it a noun or a verb) + ni, there's also "飲みにくる” and the likes.
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Re: お or ご

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 04.20.2009 6:31 pm

astaroth wrote:Though, sorry but is 読んで not a masu stem? And that's kind of a reason why there is no particles attached to it.

... which makes me think about whether in sentences like 〜し始める, is there a "hidden" を ...


There's no hidden を; A noun has always been able to connect directly to a following verb since the earliest existing written Japanese. を can be put between the noun and verb in certain cases to add a meaning, but it's never grammatically necessary. With はじめる, it is possible to put an を between the verb stem and the はじめる.

Grammatically there is no difference between お読みください and お茶ください. Grammar works off of form, not meaning, so even though the two phrases express different (but related) concepts, they are grammatically identical.

t seems like there's a relation between masu stem and te form (i.e each can be followed by auxiliary verbs)


Sometimes multiple word classes can work in the same context; this is why linguists who work on syntax devise multiple tests to decide what word-class a word belongs in rather than just one.
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Re: お or ご

Postby Infidel » Mon 04.20.2009 6:46 pm

astaroth wrote:
Infidel wrote:E.g. nani o shimasu ka.

sorry I don't understand the example ... that "o" is を not お ...


So what would happen if you tried to make nani polite?
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
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Re: お or ご

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.20.2009 6:54 pm

I have to say I'm a bit confused by all that (I have to say even what 連用形 ultimately really is makes me wonder), so thank you for clearing it. (really if sometimes I sound...whatever I sound like, it's just that I write what comes to my mind, i.e observations, thoughts and questions of all sorts. I mean, I'm not here to contradict anybody and I happily accept any correction)
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Re: お or ご

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 04.20.2009 6:54 pm

Infidel wrote:
astaroth wrote:
Infidel wrote:E.g. nani o shimasu ka.

sorry I don't understand the example ... that "o" is を not お ...


So what would happen if you tried to make nani polite?


あれは「オナニ」ですよ。
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Re: お or ご

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.20.2009 7:21 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:There's no hidden を; A noun has always been able to connect directly to a following verb since the earliest existing written Japanese. を can be put between the noun and verb in certain cases to add a meaning, but it's never grammatically necessary. With はじめる, it is possible to put an を between the verb stem and the はじめる.

By (professional) habit, I tend to find regularities or rules even when they're not there, thanks for explaining and clearing things up.
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Re: お or ご

Postby AJBryant » Tue 04.21.2009 12:22 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Infidel wrote:So what would happen if you tried to make nani polite?


あれは「オナニ」ですよ。


:lol:


(Yeah, I know. I just got a kick out of that.) :twisted:
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Re: お or ご

Postby becki_kanou » Tue 04.21.2009 1:12 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
Infidel wrote:So what would happen if you tried to make nani polite?


あれは「オナニ」ですよ。


:shock: あららら、Yudanさんがこんなお下品なことをいうとは、驚きましたわ。 :shock:

(ナイス! :twisted: )
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: お or ご

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 04.21.2009 9:24 am

お見苦しいところをお見せておりまして大変申し訳ございませんでした。:)
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Re: お or ご

Postby coco » Tue 04.21.2009 11:46 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:お見苦しいところをお見せておりまして大変申し訳ございませんでした。:)

元発言は、定番のジョークですか?
あまりに見事。 :mrgreen:
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Re: お or ご

Postby Infidel » Tue 04.21.2009 4:21 pm

AJBryant wrote:
:lol:


(Yeah, I know. I just got a kick out of that.) :twisted:


けけけ

I missed a chance to make it even funnier using the volitional form. Ahh well. I was surprised it required explanation to be honest. My intent was to keep it a subtle joke rather than having it come out and be blatant. Apparently the point seems to stand though, watch that adding the o or go doesn't change the word to something inappropriate.
なるほど。
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Re: お or ご

Postby coco » Tue 04.21.2009 6:32 pm

Infidel wrote:I missed a chance to make it even funnier using the volitional form.

なるほど。
「今から何をなさいますか? 」
でも充分衝撃的です。
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Re: お or ご

Postby Infidel » Tue 04.21.2009 10:04 pm

coco wrote:「今から何をなさいますか? 」


それはココさんの勝ちます。

負けでした。
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
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