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Signature Images

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Re: Signature Images

Postby astaroth » Tue 04.21.2009 11:11 pm

I think what Shirley is saying is that kudasai is not "please", even though it is often implied (and time to time said explicitly) in textbooks.
So by adding a kudasai to an imperative it doesn't make it polite or less authoritative.
Last edited by astaroth on Tue 04.21.2009 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Signature Images

Postby ss » Tue 04.21.2009 11:11 pm

I'm sorry, Discoさん、I'm not saying that you are a beginner.
I'm not referring you, just coincidentally recall this (very long time ago in chatroom), just think of dropping a note here.

Discoさん thinks using "kudasai" would make it polite, I just want to point this out since I recall this incident. I think it's somewhat confusing for beginners.

Someone by mistake wrote >> ちょっと待てください.


....


I don't understand why the dot dot dot there, BUT VERY SORRY for the misunderstanding, it was totally my fault for not being able to express myself clearly.
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Re: Signature Images

Postby Disco » Wed 04.22.2009 1:01 am

ホーケー、分かった。すみません。 I've been making a lot of progress lately ( I have charts). I've been studying like a madman, taking online classes, posting in this forum, asking people all kinds of questions, Practicing kanji on my DS. I'm making quick progress, and I probably was a noob, probably am a noob, and I do make noob mistakes, as I am not that skilled.SSさんは僕を訂正してくれて、ありがとう。( I lied about the charts ). :wink:
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Re: Signature Images

Postby ss » Wed 04.22.2009 2:02 am

Glad to know your progress. Keep up with your studies and please post should you have any questions, I'm sure you'll get good explanation from the regulars here. :P

I think sometimes we tend to mess up ~ないでください with ~なさい

~なさい is a imperative form, often used as an instruction by parents to their children or a senior person or a teacher to pupils.

Like your mom keeps waking you up in the morning --- 起きなさい! 起きてよ!
Until she got fed up and started 起きろ!

If teacher said --- 宿題を持ってくるのを忘れないでください。
To me, it is very kind of this teacher, it's polite for asking the students "Please don't forget to bring your homework."

If teacher said 忘れなさい, it indicates an instruction. It's different.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I need to get back to my JP study soon.

------
Thank you, astarothさん。
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Re: Signature Images

Postby astaroth » Wed 04.22.2009 11:00 am

SS wrote:If teacher said --- 宿題を持ってくるのを忘れないでください。
To me, it is very kind of this teacher, it's polite for asking the students "Please don't forget to bring your homework."

For what is worth my opinion (I'm just a beginner in Japanese), I think it's more a matter of talking to superiors or peers, that is a policeman and a cop would use 〜ないでください to instruct someone who is "inferior" to them. But it could sound impolite to use if talking with a superior or a stranger (it's always safe in any language to treat stranger with respect even though they might be your peers in other situations).
SS wrote:I think sometimes we tend to mess up ~ないでください with ~なさい

~なさい is a imperative form, often used as an instruction by parents to their children or a senior person or a teacher to pupils.

This is what I don't understand of expressions like ごめんなさい o おやすみなさい ... that is they are grammatically an imperative ... I'm puzzled ...
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Re: Signature Images

Postby Infidel » Wed 04.22.2009 3:26 pm

I always think of kudasai as "please" in the sense of a polite order. Such as a polite boss that says "Please file these papers." Instead of a more direct, "go file these papers" Or asking a waiter to get me some water. Basically, kudasai is for orders you expect to be obeyed.

I've not seen this point countered yet, but I might still be off a bit.
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Re: Signature Images

Postby kurisuto » Wed 04.22.2009 4:44 pm

I guess using an imperative is always a little bit rough because of it's very nature (hence the "-te itadakemasenka" or the unfinished sentence with "ga" for instance). However, for example one of the very first sentence we learned in class, before even learning the te form and the imperative, was もう一度言ってください (as you can guess, it was intended to be said by students to teachers). The rest is a matter of context I think, e.g legitimacy and nature of the request amongst others, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily used in a 目上 to 目下 situation.
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Re: Signature Images

Postby ss » Thu 04.23.2009 12:00 am

astaroth wrote:
This is what I don't understand of expressions like ごめんなさい o おやすみなさい ... that is they are grammatically an imperative ... I'm puzzled ...


And, again, (correct me if I'm wrong) maybe we tend to confuse with なさる.
なさる is respectful form of する(します)
なさる + ます → なさいます

If someone said 「どうぞこちらでお休みなさい」、 it means "Please take a good rest here."

If someone said to sensei 「先生はもうお帰りなさいますか。」、 it means "Teacher, are you going home?"

It's super polite.
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Re: Signature Images

Postby astaroth » Thu 04.23.2009 11:43 am

SS wrote:And, again, (correct me if I'm wrong) maybe we tend to confuse with なさる.
なさる is respectful form of する(します)
なさる + ます → なさいます

I see. Thank you.
なさる always confuses me ... also it's a bit of grammar I hadn't studied yet :oops:
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Re: Signature Images

Postby ss » Fri 04.24.2009 3:16 am

That's what the forum for and why we are here. :P
I've made it a habit when reading posts in TJP, I know I will pick up new words and grammar points every now and then. Even with things I've learned before, it's really no harm reviewing them over and over again. Thanks too.
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