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Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Sat 04.25.2009 11:46 pm

Um can people PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth? I never said gairaigo was an outrage, so just stop lying right now. I said that the volume of gairaigo which has been entering Japan during a short period of time goes beyond the bounds of normal linguistic borrowing. I never said "yuck - let's get rid of all gairaigo right now!!!" I just said I would prefer to use kanji over gairaigo. So yeah, I'm sick of people putting words in my mouth.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby furrykef » Sun 04.26.2009 12:00 am

vinniram wrote:Once again you've misinterpreted what I mean. I don't purposely go around avoiding romance words in English - why would I? I love French, and it's a romance language!!!!! I was merely using that as an analogy to the gairaigo/kanji issue. It was an ANALOGY, not what I actually do. In fact, I remember saying that it would be crazy to try and avoid all romance words, because it's impossible. PLEASE stop misinterpreting/misconstruing/twisting what I say!!!


Actually, you're misinterpreting what I'M saying. I never said you did those things. I said the very idea of it was bizarre, whether or not you or anybody else actually did it. Hence, by extension, the idea of avoiding gairaigo in Japanese is bizarre.

(Perhaps you got confused because I used the word "you", as in "If you don't like Latin words, English is not for you." By that I meant the "generic you", not you in particular -- i.e., "If one does not like Latin words...")

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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sun 04.26.2009 12:16 am

Allow me to illustrate the inconsistency with direct quotes then.

vinniram wrote:I don't purposely go around avoiding romance words in English

vinniram wrote:I just said I would prefer to use kanji over gairaigo.


That particular inconsistency stands. Regarding Chinese words in Japanese:
vinniram wrote:I know that languages borrowing words from other languages is normal, but this gairaigo thing is just over the top - when I go onto a wikipedia page, I expect to see japanese, not 90% english words rendered in katakana, and 5% grammatical particles and 5% kanji.

Wikipedia article "Japanese Language wrote:According to a Japanese dictionary Shinsen-kokugojiten (新選国語辞典), Chinese-based words comprise 49.1% of the total vocabulary, Wago is 33.8% and other foreign words are 8.8%.


I'm still waiting to hear why you don't hold the same obsession towards kango as for gairaigo.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby Infidel » Sun 04.26.2009 12:22 am

Gundaetiapo wrote:I'm still waiting to hear why you don't hold the same obsession towards kango as for gairaigo.


I know, let's get rid of ON readings. Don't just drop kango, but ON yomi.

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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Sun 04.26.2009 12:36 am

ok firstly kef, that last post wasn't directed towards you so sorry for that confusion.

to gundaetiapo and infidel - have you ever heard of something called "changing your mind"? When I started this thread, I was a lot less informed than I am now. In fact, I wrote a post about half-way through this thread saying that gairaigo are OK, and that I don't want them totally removed or any such rubbish (something which I NEVER said).

if you're going to respond, please read all the posts in the thread. and please stop quoting the opening post of this thread, as I have CHANGED MY MIND. I'm pretty sure humans have the capability to change their mind, well at least I know I have that capability. the reason I haven't edited the first post to reflect my change in view is because that would disorient the thread and make a lot of subsequent posts seem, well, random.

Once again, I never said I want to "drop" gairaigo, so please don't put those words in my mouth.

To clarify, for those who would come and accuse me of being an arrogant foreigner: Gairaigo are there, and that is FINE (yes, that is totally, absolutely, undoubtedly, without doubt, ALRIGHT!!!!!!) I just think that where equivalent kanji exist, if ONE is so inclined, one CAN use the kanji in place of the gairaigo, because I think ONE has that choice to make for ONESELF.

I hope that the above statement makes my position crystal clear, and can people please stop accusing me of having an "obsession" with gairaigo, or wanting it to all disappear?
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby furrykef » Sun 04.26.2009 12:41 am

Hey guys, I have a great idea: let's just drop this discussion. It's not going anywhere, and doesn't appear as if it's going to anytime soon.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Sun 04.26.2009 12:45 am

ok agreed.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby Infidel » Sun 04.26.2009 1:21 am

vinniram wrote:
to gundaetiapo and infidel - have you ever heard of something called "changing your mind"?


If you haven't noticed, the thread has moved beyond the op. Stop trying to make it your personal domain. You don't own the thread and every post made does not have to be directed at you, or even concern you. There's something very ME ME ME about the way you attempt to make yourself the focus even when you are not. My post wasn't even addressed to you, but you reply as if it was. Do you know the difference between general comments and personal criticism? Get off the attitude

A thread is an open conversation, you don't control it. Attempting to is as rude online as it would be in person and taking generic statements as if they were personal insults is your own problem not ours. Work on your own reading comprehension before you complain about mine. Here's a hint. If the person being quoted and responded to is NOT YOU, then you're not the subject of that post.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Sun 04.26.2009 1:57 am

ok, I'm sorry for misinterpreting you, but all the same I don't think I have an attitude problem, and I most certainly am not ME ME ME. so please don't call me those stupid things.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby Mike Cash » Sun 04.26.2009 2:14 am

furrykef wrote:Hey guys, I have a great idea: let's just drop this discussion. It's not going anywhere, and doesn't appear as if it's going to anytime soon.


If he had spent as much time/effort actually learning Japanese as he has spent talking about learning Japanese, he would have been done by now.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby furrykef » Sun 04.26.2009 2:17 am

Heh, well, I'm sure the same is true of me, too... :P
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Sun 04.26.2009 3:04 am

well... that's true I guess :P but no I can't learn it this year, because if I don't get good grades, I'm not going to get into uni :( But I will learn it next year!
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby richvh » Sun 04.26.2009 8:01 am

leonl wrote:I can't believe i'm saying this, but if your goal with learning Japanese is just to learn thousands of kanji you should pick up Remembering The Kanji volumes 1-3 which will teach you the meaning and readings of about 3000 kanji. You're going to have study a lot of Japanese before you run into or need to know past 2000 kanji.You would also probably need to study classical Japanese in order to have any use for knowing all those extra kanji. To some up my point, richv who is writing his own novel has stated in a few threads that he only knows about 1000 kanji(apologies if I've misquoted or miss read your posts richv). Point is you don't need to know 4000 kanji to have fun with Japanese


1300+, which is enough for me to be able to read light novels or manga and understand most of the story from context. And note that my standard of "knowing" kanji may be a bit odd; I can, when transcribing into JWPce, type in at least one word that contains the kanji (not counting personal names) without looking up the word. (The "color kanji" feature of JWPce is where I get the 1300+ figure. My home computer has 1324 kanji in its color kanji list.) Some of those I know (by this standard) are non-Jouyou kanji, even old forms of modern kanji, just because of the my reading material.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby nukemarine » Sun 04.26.2009 12:33 pm

Mike Cash wrote:
furrykef wrote:Hey guys, I have a great idea: let's just drop this discussion. It's not going anywhere, and doesn't appear as if it's going to anytime soon.


If he had spent as much time/effort actually learning Japanese as he has spent talking about learning Japanese, he would have been done by now.


Woah! There's a point where we can be done with Japanese? :D
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby AJBryant » Sun 04.26.2009 12:52 pm

Yeah, it's called "death." :twisted:
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