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Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby LordOfTheFlies » Fri 04.24.2009 9:30 am

I think you're rushing it a bit. I've been studying Japanese on my own for three years now and even though I've made great progress I wouldn't call myself fluent or even nearly fluent, let's just say I know a lot of Japanese but there's still much missing. We all have different methods of learning things. I never used a text book myself because I've had very bad experiences with them in other languages(English and Spanish). I acquired the majority of my Japanese knowledge by reading online tutorials, using online dictionaries, a grammar dictionary called 日本語文法辞典(中級編) and I learned a vast amount of vocabulary playing Japanese video games. On a different note I also learned most of my English from video games before school even started teaching English here, so it was kind of boring for me to sit in a class room and tell everyone what my favorite color was when I was pretty much fluent already. I'm not saying it will work for you but, if you enjoy playing video games you might wanna try playing some Japanese video games with lots of dialogues.

I don't know if you've been to the TJP chat yet but, there's often people there who want to practice speaking Japanese. I'm there almost all the time so, just swing by if you wanna practice your Japanese :p

And I'll let you in on a secret... Even after 15 years or so of speaking English I still make mistakes and I still run into words I don't know yet every once in a while. Learning a language isn't a walk in the park, after all you need to force massive amounts of information inside your head and retain it all perfectly.

とにかく、あまりに焦らないで勉強を続けてくださいね。
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby jcdoss » Fri 04.24.2009 11:32 am

Disco wrote:...I'm just anxious to be up there with the BIG BOYS in japanese.


I'm on the other end. I'd love to be fluent some day, but I'm having a great time learning even at the wee-tiny beginner level. I'll be a "big boy" some day, maybe, but why not relax and have fun learning on the way? Send me some more practice PMs. I was enjoying those... and your abilities were apparently much farther along than mine.
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby astaroth » Fri 04.24.2009 11:50 am

LordOfTheFlies wrote:a grammar dictionary called 日本語文法辞典(中級編)

This is a great book. I got the beginner's one, and I'm using it a lot when I don't remember a particular construction. I think for me the intermediate is still a little further along the way, but I'd strongly suggest the get one of those three grammar dictionary.
jcdoss wrote:I'm on the other end. I'd love to be fluent some day, but I'm having a great time learning even at the wee-tiny beginner level. I'll be a "big boy" some day, maybe, but why not relax and have fun learning on the way?

I agree. Personally I got fluent in English only by moving to US, before my level skills were fairly basic (read: I would manage not to die in a foreign country), but again I'm still learning and still making lots of mistakes in writing and speaking (the difference is that now most of the time I know it's a mistake ...)
And at times I'm still learning my own native language. Yesterday I was surprised to realize that the verb competere doesn't have the past participle ... it was quite a humbling moment.
As of Japanese. I'd love to get to the point of being able to follow a movie without subtitles or to read novels and manga in their original version. That's my goal and knowing I'm not there yet is both discomforting and motivating. :)
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby Disco » Fri 04.24.2009 3:52 pm

I see. Thank you all, this has been very insightful. I've only been studying Japanese for 2 years. I know that one can never know ALL the kanji or ALL of the words, even in their own language. I looked at that thread that you linked me to, ss, and I was shocked. Some people have been studying for a long time and still forget a lot. My goal is to one day be knowledgeable in the spectrum of everyday speech and kanji comprehension. Even there, I misspelled knowledgeable :lol: .
>Asaroth: I would have never guessed that your original language was Italian. Also, I've bought some untranslated manga, books, and movies. Books are the hardest, because you can't get context clues, being that there's no visual aid. I do try to go ahead of my level often, but I guess I shall just take it one step at a time.
>JCDoss: I love practicing via PM, I shall send one in a few minutes.
>LOTF ( loved that book): I'm enticed by this frequently mentioned "日本語文法辞典(中級編)". Link? And yes I do play Japanese Video games. I've played ゼルだの伝説ムジュラの仮面、いろいろなゼルだゲーム、へイロ3、etc. Any that you recommend?
(also in Zelda: phantom hourglass, if you touch the kanji, the furigana appears, isn't that a great feature.)
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby astaroth » Fri 04.24.2009 4:17 pm

Disco wrote:>Asaroth: I would have never guessed that your original language was Italian. Also, I've bought some untranslated manga, books, and movies. Books are the hardest, because you can't get context clues, being that there's no visual aid. I do try to go ahead of my level often, but I guess I shall just take it one step at a time.

I'll have to still try reading untranslated manga. I'm watching dorama's with subtitles and am able to understand bits (mostly short sentences or expression) but the subtitles help a lot: I know what to expect and so it's easier for me to hear. I had a very humbling moment when I watched Kurosawa's Ran -- even the little I was able to understand in dorama's was much more of what I was able to understand in that movie (though a beautiful movie and I learned 母上 and 父上 ... well I don't think I'll ever use those two words ...)
Disco wrote:>LOTF ( loved that book): I'm enticed by this frequently mentioned "日本語文法辞典(中級編)". Link?

here http://www.thejapanshop.com/home.php?cat=371
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby LordOfTheFlies » Fri 04.24.2009 4:55 pm

Disco wrote:>LOTF ( loved that book): I'm enticed by this frequently mentioned "日本語文法辞典(中級編)". Link? And yes I do play Japanese Video games. I've played ゼルだの伝説ムジュラの仮面、いろいろなゼルだゲーム、へイロ3、etc. Any that you recommend?
(also in Zelda: phantom hourglass, if you touch the kanji, the furigana appears, isn't that a great feature.)

astaroth linked it in the above post. I think it's an amazing collection of grammatical topics with explanations, example sentences and also usually includes a list of dos and dont's.

I've played a lot of Japanese video games. Some I've finished, some I've played fairly thoroughly and some I have only played a bit of. But I can give you a list of video games that I've played and I'll give you an idea of how easy/difficult they are.

聖剣伝説2(せいけんでんせつ)、Secret of Mana, SNES RPG (Easily read dialogues with spacing between words, mostly easily read kanji, uses very little kanji compared to other games, grammar ranges from simple to intermediate)
ゼルダの伝説・神々のトライフォース、Zelda: A link to the Past, SNES action/platform (Doesn't use too much kanji, very easily read and neat fonts, grammar ranges from simple to difficult)

クロノトリガー、Chrono Trigger, SNES RPG (Uses a fair amount of kanji, easily readable font however, grammar ranges from surprisingly easy to extremely difficult)
ファイナルファンタジーVI、Final Fantasy 6, SNES RPG (Kanji is splattered all over the game like in a newspaper, very easy to read as the font is pretty much the same as the standard ones used on computers, grammar is intermediate and very difficult at times)
ファイナルファンタジーVII、Final Fantasy 7, PS RPG (Uses much more kanji due to not being restricted to a low resolution, very easy to read, grammar ranges from intermediate to difficult)
ファイナルファンタジーIV、Final Fantasy 9, PS RPG (Uses a lot of kanji including very strange ones and ones that aren't normally used, slightly difficult to read due to the font being stylish rather than functional, grammar is intermediate or difficult all of the time)
ファイナルファンタジーX、Final Fantasy 10, PS2 RPG (Has voice acting most of the time which is subtitled in Japanese, the font is as easy to read as on a computer, grammar is sometimes easy and sometimes difficult)
エストポリス伝記II、Lufia 2, SNES RPG (Lots of kanji, kanji is sometimes difficult to read due to the fact that the game is really old, simple to difficult grammar)

ファイナルファンタジーIV、Final Fantasy 4, SNES/NDS RPG (SNES version is extremely difficult since it is kana only and the font is so bad it's painful to read, the DS version is better but it still has a fair amount of kanji and because of the small screen that the DS uses the kanji are somewhat simplified/distorted and can be hard to read, mostly difficult grammar and difficult vocabulary)
聖剣伝説3、No official English title, SNES RPG (Uses a lot of kanji, puts an extremely large variety of vocabulary into use, many difficult words, grammar is sometimes easy and sometimes difficult)
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby ss » Sun 04.26.2009 2:56 am

Disco wrote:
I looked at that thread that you linked me to, and I was shocked. Some people have been studying for a long time and still forget a lot.


Please don't misinterpret.
They are humble people and you can learn a lot of things from them if you're watchful enough.

Speaking about "forgot a lot", I can't seem to remember words like museum(??), diarrhea(??), pneumatic(??), occurance(??) .... and many many. Even in Chinese, I tend to forget many words.
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 04.26.2009 9:12 am

The good thing about a lot of PS2 RPGs is that the dialogue is often fully voice acted, and you can hear the line spoken then take as much time as you want to look up words or kanji before going on to the next box. Lately I've been mostly playing the Tales Of series, Super Robot Taisen, and Eiyuu Densetsu but I would classify all of those in the red (hard) category (and the latter two don't have full voice acting).

I remember one of the first JP RPGs I tried to play on my own was Tactics Ogre, which is extremely difficult...I guess I learned a lot, though.
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Re: Japanese soloist:僕の絶望…

Postby astaroth » Sun 04.26.2009 11:34 am

SS wrote:Speaking about "forgot a lot", I can't seem to remember words like museum(??), diarrhea(??), pneumatic(??), occurance(??) .... and many many. Even in Chinese, I tend to forget many words.

That's actually quite common. What one doesn't use will be forgotten. (That's the reason SRS works or how it works.)
What I find quite confusing is when two words in two different languages are similar in sound but different in meaning, after a while one of the two will prevail over the other. Richard Dawkins might even use this as an example of how memes work.
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