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Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby astaroth » Sun 04.26.2009 9:17 pm

kurisuto wrote:how are French viewed in Italy ?

You really wanna know?!
Most jokes in Italy are based on regional and provincial prejudices, so Veneti (people from Veneto) are ignorant and greedy, Piemontesi "fals et curtes" (in Milanese) that is "false and gentle", then Pavia ... Most of those are from where I'm from, Milan.
About other countries in Europe. Germans lack any imagination and follow orders by the letter, Austrian are a decayed people still living in the epoch of the Empire, French are presumptuous ...

Then as jokes go, half of the Italian jokes start with "There are a German, a French and an Italian ..." and the other half is about carabinieri (gendarmerie)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Mon 04.27.2009 4:28 am

astaroth wrote:French are presumptuous ...


Haha depends which part of France. From what I've gathered, those on the Côte d'Azur and in the southern regions are a lot more décontracté in comparison to les Parisiens, or les français du nord!
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.27.2009 7:38 am

vinniram wrote:Haha depends which part of France. From what I've gathered, those on the Côte d'Azur and in the southern regions are a lot more décontracté in comparison to les Parisiens, or les français du nord!

People from the Côte d'Azur are Italian in disguise ... :)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.27.2009 8:58 am

astaroth wrote:You really wanna know?!
Most jokes in Italy are based on regional and provincial prejudices, so Veneti (people from Veneto) are ignorant and greedy, Piemontesi "fals et curtes" (in Milanese) that is "false and gentle", then Pavia ... Most of those are from where I'm from, Milan.
About other countries in Europe. Germans lack any imagination and follow orders by the letter, Austrian are a decayed people still living in the epoch of the Empire, French are presumptuous ...

Then as jokes go, half of the Italian jokes start with "There are a German, a French and an Italian ..." and the other half is about carabinieri (gendarmerie)


Presumptuous... I guess jokes have some truth in them :roll:

It's funny because you can learn a language with books, you can even learn the history of the country and all that, but finding details about jokes - particularly this kind of jokes about the other countries - is a bit more difficult to find (unfortunately so because it somewhat constitutes the "soul" of a country). Thanks for the info :wink: (and btw, this Milanese phrase looks a bit like French - which would be "faux et courtois", even more like old French [for instance, "chevals" - plural of horse - gave in modern Fr "chevaux", "es" often evolved into "ois", "u" into "ou". So I think this phrase in old Fr would have been the exact same one]. OK, that's not particularly surprising either, but I like this kind of "linguistic facts")
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.27.2009 11:59 am

kurisuto wrote:this Milanese phrase looks a bit like French

Milanese is closer to French than to Italian, in many ways grammar and sounds: there are construction which are not in Italian and there are sounds which are completely absent in Italian but are there in Milanese, like the difference between ü and u, and ö and o, or long and short vowels.

There is a joke in Milanese about a Napoleonic French soldier who came to Milan and seeing a nut asked what they were (the French part is written as if it were Milanese ... the translations are both if it were Milanese and French)
F: "Com sa pel?" (What's their name? / How do you peal them?)
M: "Se pelen no, se schiscen" (You don't peal them, you crack them)
F: "co man?" (What? / With your hands?)
M: "co man, co pe', com te par!" (With your hands, with your feet, whatever you like!)
F: "je ne comprand pas" (I don't understand / I'm not going to buy any)
M: "se te voret compra no, lassa sta" (If you don't want to buy, leave me alone)
The French left and the Milanese commented:
M: "ades si che si capis co sti franse, prima co i tedesc se capiva mia" (We can understand now with the French, before with the Germans we couldn't understand a word)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.27.2009 12:31 pm

astaroth wrote:Milanese is closer to French than to Italian, in many ways grammar and sounds: there are construction which are not in Italian and there are sounds which are completely absent in Italian but are there in Milanese, like the difference between ü and u, and ö and o, or long and short vowels.

There is a joke in Milanese about a Napoleonic French soldier who came to Milan and seeing a nut asked what they were (the French part is written as if it were Milanese ... the translations are both if it were Milanese and French)
F: "Com sa pel?" (What's their name? / How do you peal them?)
M: "Se pelen no, se schiscen" (You don't peal them, you crack them)
F: "co man?" (What? / With your hands?)
M: "co man, co pe', com te par!" (With your hands, with your feet, whatever you like!)
F: "je ne comprand pas" (I don't understand / I'm not going to buy any)
M: "se te voret compra no, lassa sta" (If you don't want to buy, leave me alone)
The French left and the Milanese commented:
M: "ades si che si capis co sti franse, prima co i tedesc se capiva mia" (We can understand now with the French, before with the Germans we couldn't understand a word)


:lol: Good one ! But now, you made me want to study Milanese (and Milan for that matter) :evil:
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.27.2009 1:53 pm

kurisuto wrote::lol: Good one ! But now, you made me want to study Milanese (and Milan for that matter) :evil:

Don't worry, it's almost impossible that you'll be able to find any book on Milanese.
The dialects of Italy, though called dialects, should be considered languages separated from Italian, which was the Florentine dialect, and the kingdom before, than the republic made all efforts to remove them and made Italians to speak Italian. (This was actually achieved thanks to the TV in the 50s)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Mon 04.27.2009 4:40 pm

kurisuto wrote:
Presumptuous... I guess jokes have some truth in them :roll:



Every good joke starts with a bit of the truth and then spins it up nicely into something easily conveyed and even more easily believed due to 'stretching' of the truth.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.27.2009 6:13 pm

two_heads_talking wrote:Every good joke starts with a bit of the truth and then spins it up nicely into something easily conveyed and even more easily believed due to 'stretching' of the truth.


Often, yeah ; but if we take the example of Belgians, does that mean that they're really dumb ? Of course not, but I just keep wondering where this reputation comes from, what this tiny little bit of piece of truth is.
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby vinniram » Tue 04.28.2009 3:08 am

Often, yeah ; but if we take the example of Belgians, does that mean that they're really dumb ? Of course not, but I just keep wondering where this reputation comes from, what this tiny little bit of piece of truth is.


I know it's crazy that people think Belgians are dumb - after all, haven't they heard of Monsieur Hercule Poirot!? :D
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby AJBryant » Tue 04.28.2009 8:33 am

kurisuto wrote:
two_heads_talking wrote:Every good joke starts with a bit of the truth and then spins it up nicely into something easily conveyed and even more easily believed due to 'stretching' of the truth.


Often, yeah ; but if we take the example of Belgians, does that mean that they're really dumb ? Of course not, but I just keep wondering where this reputation comes from, what this tiny little bit of piece of truth is.


I don't think it's so much "dumb" as... well, vanilla.

It's the old challenge: "Name a Belgian." (Of course, Poirot, being fictional, doesn't count.)


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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby furrykef » Tue 04.28.2009 8:55 am

Ooh, ooh, I've got one!

Belgian Waffle!
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Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby kurisuto » Tue 04.28.2009 9:41 am

AJBryant wrote:"Name a Belgian."


Jacques Brel (I have trouble figuring out who is known or not in America, but he wrote for instance "Ne me quitte pas", aka "If you go away") :)
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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby AJBryant » Tue 04.28.2009 10:02 am

Holy cow, I always thought Brel was French.

Wow.


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Re: Agonizing over whether to learn Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Tue 04.28.2009 10:38 am

kurisuto wrote:
two_heads_talking wrote:Every good joke starts with a bit of the truth and then spins it up nicely into something easily conveyed and even more easily believed due to 'stretching' of the truth.


Often, yeah ; but if we take the example of Belgians, does that mean that they're really dumb ? Of course not, but I just keep wondering where this reputation comes from, what this tiny little bit of piece of truth is.



It's taking a stereotype, exagerating it, stretching it, and mocking it to the point where the original 'truth' is no longer there, but it's still visible to everyone and thus the humore..

Do all the men in Montana like sheep better than women? of course not, but if the joke "why do Montana men wear cowboy boots?" gets mentioned, the sheep answer comes up.. See what I mean?
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