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Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

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Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby kentaku_sama » Sun 04.26.2009 10:39 pm

I don't know if I heard this somewhere or what but I wonder, do some japanese in japan learn hanzi characters that only have on-yomi like in high school or collage as a extra credit elective or something. like symbols that could be used with japanese grammar but are not everyday use.

Also are there more kanji than 2000 joyo in japanese? I don't exactly know why but I would like to continue to study kanji after I learn all 2000 joyo , if I ever do... XD What are these other symbols called?
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 04.26.2009 10:47 pm

kentaku_sama wrote:I don't know if I heard this somewhere or what but I wonder, do some japanese in japan learn hanzi characters that only have on-yomi like in high school or collage as a extra credit elective or something. like symbols that could be used with japanese grammar but are not everyday use.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean here; characters that only have on-yomi aren't necessarily rare (technically there is no kanji that has only on-yomi, but many kun-yomi are not "officially" accepted by the jouyou list)

Most Japanese people just learn whatever kanji they need to get by in daily life whether they are on the jouyou list or not; for people who don't read very often and aren't highly educated that's not very many kanji. More educated people who read more probably know more.

Also are there more kanji than 2000 joyo in japanese? I don't exactly know why but I would like to continue to study kanji after I learn all 2000 joyo , if I ever do... XD What are these other symbols called?


They aren't called anything, they're just kanji. There are many common use kanji that are not on the jouyou list, unfortunately.
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby furrykef » Mon 04.27.2009 4:29 am

The most common term would simply be "non-Jōyō kanji". But note that there's also a set called the "Jinmeiyō kanji", which complements the Joyo set. The Jinmeiyo kanji are basically non-Joyo kanji that are approved for use in personal names (in fact, that's what 人名用 Jinmeiyo means: "personal name use"). The original intention was to allow these kanji to be used for names without requiring students to learn them and use them in ordinary words, but sometimes kanji were proposed for the Jinmeiyo set simply because, for whatever reason, it was easier to extend the Jinmeiyo set than the Joyo set. Together they make 2928 kanji, although 228 are simply variants of other kanji (like 龍 instead of 竜 -- outside of names, they're considered to be the same kanji).

Most people here will tell you it's a waste of time to study kanji in and of themselves, rather than words composed of those kanji. If your goal is simply to read and write Japanese, that may be true. But I think there's nothing wrong with studying kanji as a sort of side hobby, as long as you recognize that it isn't necessary to actually use Japanese.

(I'm mostly talking about the number of kanji here. Studying kanji in the sense of understanding their forms, i.e., how they're composed, is not a bad idea, and will probably be necessary. I also think it's not a bad idea to use Heisig's RTK1 to study the Joyo kanji, although many people here don't like that book.)

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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.27.2009 9:12 am

That's probably not used a lot, but there's the term 表外字 (hyougaiji) (I don't know whether I've seen it anywhere else, but on our kanji/grammar lists our teachers would write things like 闇 (注:表外字。仮名書きでよい) ).
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby Mike Cash » Mon 04.27.2009 5:24 pm

Since when are there 2000 常用漢字?
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby furrykef » Mon 04.27.2009 5:38 pm

We just round 1945 up to 2000 the same way we round $19.95 up to $20.00. :mrgreen:
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby astaroth » Mon 04.27.2009 5:56 pm

Mike Cash wrote:Since when are there 2000 常用漢字?

Well, they'll probably become slightly more than 2000 :)
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby NocturnalOcean » Tue 04.28.2009 7:21 pm

furrykef wrote:We just round 1945 up to 2000 the same way we round $19.95 up to $20.00. :mrgreen:


I heard World War 2 ended in year 2000.
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby astaroth » Tue 04.28.2009 7:34 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I heard World War 2 ended in year 2000.

It's the same order of magnitude indeed. (And of course the speed of light is set to be equal to 1 ...)
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby furrykef » Tue 04.28.2009 10:30 pm

10,000 years from now, whether WW2 ended in 1945 or in 2000 won't make that big a difference. :P

In fact, many people commit errors of at least that magnitude constantly when writing fiction set more than a couple hundred years ago, and it generally passes without comment. Mostly because most of us don't know better, of course, but still.

For the record, 2000 is 2.8% larger than 1945. Seems like a drop in the bucket to me, but I suppose some might consider that to be more than a tiny error.

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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby CajunCoder » Wed 04.29.2009 12:49 am

Measuring anything with numbers is a matter of relativity anyway. In the real world, you cannot measure anything "perfectly." Anyone familiar with science knows that "measurement" is merely a way of putting into perspective something much more complex (and sometimes, abstract), so that it can be understood more easily. There is always room for being "more accurate", of course, but generally, you settle for "accurate enough." In the context of the OP's original post, rounding the jouyou kanji list to 2000 doesn't really detract from the effectiveness of how he communicated his question, so it falls into the category of "accurate enough."

Anything in language, however accurate or inaccurate, complex or simple, is meaningless when viewed without context :P
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby nukemarine » Wed 04.29.2009 2:05 am

Plus to the topic at hand, some Jouyou are not used as frequently as some non-Jouyou kanji. Still, that you have a hyper literate culture that gives furigana in its youth literature helps train kanji recognition even though there's no formal method set-up.

Some (well, probably most) Japanese will claim not to be good at kanji (writing or recognition), but they probably can write and recognize even those "rare" kanji.
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 04.29.2009 9:11 am

In my experience they cannot. (Most youths don't read anything anyway.) Highly educated people know a lot of kanji, average people don't know that many.

I certainly do not know all the kanji on the Jouyou list and I use Japanese every day for both my schoolwork and recreation. I would estimate my passive knowledge of the kanji on the Jouyou list at somewhere between 1300 and 1500; and I probably know another few hundred that aren't on the list. That works fine for me.
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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby furrykef » Wed 04.29.2009 12:51 pm

I think what nukemarine meant was that most native Japanese can easily read certain non-Jōyō kanji such as 誰.

I do have to wonder why that word is written in kanji so often, though, considering that similar words like どれ, あれ, それ, and これ are virtually always written in kana. I guess they'd left 誰 off the list to try to make the usage consistent with the other all-kana words, and it just didn't catch on?

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Re: Learn more kanji than 2000 joyo

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 04.29.2009 5:22 pm

Well, I'll reiterate my advice that I put elsewhere -- it's not necessary to learn all the Jouyou kanji. By the time you get to the point where you know about 60-70% of the jouyou, you're going to be in a position where you can learn new kanji from reading things that are interesting to you and learning the kanji that appear in those things -- whether they are jouyou kanji or not. Some people may have the idea that they want to learn everything just in case, but the reality is that you're not going to remember characters that you never see, even if you learn them once. I have theoretically learned every Jouyou kanji, but as I said earlier, my actual knowledge of the list is probably somewhere in the 1300-1500 range, because the rest of them just don't show up, or show up often enough for me to bother.

It's not like the Jouyou list is "basic" and everything beyond that is extra; what would probably constitute a "basic" list is smaller than the Jouyou, and the "extra" would include some Jouyou and some non-Jouyou.
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