What makes Japanese so difficult?
Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
Reading kana with no problem, or even reading kana fluently, I think, is different than reading at a native pace. Some people read slower than others in their native language anyway.
- Yudan Taiteki
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
The ん sound represents (at least) 5 different pronunciations. In most cases it's a nasalized vowel, not a consonant, but most foreigners just pronounce it as a consonant "n" in all cases. In pronouncing 参戦(さんせん), for instance, your tongue should not touch the top of your mouth at all.astaroth wrote:I often hear this ... but I quite don't understand what really means: I mean what's so difficult to the ん sound? (not saying I'm pronouncing Japanese perfectly ... I'm certain I'm not ...)Yudan Taiteki wrote:still can't pronounce ん correctly
You should also be able to distinguish between pairs like 三円 vs. 三年, 日本の vs. 日本を, 谷 vs. 単に vs. 単位, etc.
-Chris Kern
Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
I don't know if this is what Chris was talking about. But I've noticed a lot of people will blend ん into the next word and don't hold ん for the full mora. んや will be pronounced にゃ. ん also changes sound in some words nn, ng, m and some people don't account for that.astaroth wrote:I often hear this ... but I quite don't understand what really means: I mean what's so difficult to the ん sound? (not saying I'm pronouncing Japanese perfectly ... I'm certain I'm not ...)Yudan Taiteki wrote:still can't pronounce ん correctly
edit - ahh, Chris came back while I was typing...
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
さっぱりわからん。
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
The above is a good reason to include native audio should you use electronic flash cards ala Anki or Mnemosyne. Barring that, running your sentences through a good Text to Speech engine is a ... better than nothing second choice.
In addition, there's a list of Audio/texts floating around, and watching Japanese TV shows with j-subs can help you feel for the difference.
Ah, then there's the regional differences, but that's a whole other can of worms.
In addition, there's a list of Audio/texts floating around, and watching Japanese TV shows with j-subs can help you feel for the difference.
Ah, then there's the regional differences, but that's a whole other can of worms.
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
I dunno. I remember somebody on the RevTK forums saying that they used a voice such as VW Show (a pretty good Japanese TTS that I also have) with their SRS, and it adversely affected their intonation enough that their teacher practically begged them to stop.nukemarine wrote:Barring that, running your sentences through a good Text to Speech engine is a ... better than nothing second choice.
- Kef
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Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
Like I said, it's a better than nothing. However, seeing that Smart.fm's Core 2k and Core 6k sentences and Coscom's KO2001 sentences have native read audio, there's no real reason to use a TTS. However, last year when such resources were not available, it was useful.furrykef wrote:I dunno. I remember somebody on the RevTK forums saying that they used a voice such as VW Show (a pretty good Japanese TTS that I also have) with their SRS, and it adversely affected their intonation enough that their teacher practically begged them to stop.nukemarine wrote:Barring that, running your sentences through a good Text to Speech engine is a ... better than nothing second choice.
- Kef
DO NOT SHADOW a TTS engine though. Yeah, you will sound like a robot bent on world domination.
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
Is that supposed to be hard to say?NocturnalOcean wrote:Try say 店員さんは千円を拾った
Tony
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
In my experience, very few foreigners would be able to say that sentence correctly (I count myself in that number; if I say it slowly I can manage it but it's tough).AJBryant wrote:Is that supposed to be hard to say?NocturnalOcean wrote:Try say 店員さんは千円を拾った
-Chris Kern
Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
Especially with san'en I've noticed that the n gets nasalized a bit and can sound sorta like sang yen. I assume the y is just my mind playing tricks on me due to the ng sound.Yudan Taiteki wrote:In my experience, very few foreigners would be able to say that sentence correctly (I count myself in that number; if I say it slowly I can manage it but it's tough).AJBryant wrote:Is that supposed to be hard to say?NocturnalOcean wrote:Try say 店員さんは千円を拾った
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。
さっぱりわからん。
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
Hm. Okay.
I'll have to take your word for that one. Sounds eas... hm. okay, not hard... to me.
I'll have to take your word for that one. Sounds eas... hm. okay, not hard... to me.
- Yudan Taiteki
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
To be a little more explicit, the difficulty is that in my experience, few foreigners have ever been given any instruction in how to pronounce ん. I had no idea myself until I started teaching from JSL and read the description of the "n" syllable and started paying more attention to pronounciation. In 店員さんは千円を拾った, I think most people pronounce 店員 as either てにん or てんにん rather than てんいん. Many people do not know that for ん followed by an s-row sound, your tongue shouldn't touch the top of your mouth (so it's a vowel rather than a consonant). 千円 should not be 千年 (the "e" changes to sort of a "y" sound), and finally the o changes to a "wo" after the ん.
(At least in Tokyo dialect.)
(At least in Tokyo dialect.)
-Chris Kern
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
My own problem now is distinguishing the sound of ん in さんえん and the Spanish ñ... I know they're not the same phoneme, but it sounds like sañen to me. Or maybe it's the other way around and I'm pronouncing Spanish ñ like Japanese ん...
I'm guessing the main difference between the two is that ñ is more consonantal than the intervocalic ん sound, or something.
I'm guessing the main difference between the two is that ñ is more consonantal than the intervocalic ん sound, or something.
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Also see my lang-8 journal, where you can help me practice Japanese (and Spanish, and Italian!)
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Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
My guess would be the other way around that is pronouncing ñ like んfurrykef wrote:Or maybe it's the other way around and I'm pronouncing Spanish ñ like Japanese ん...
It's like gnocchi and noci (well there, there is also the second half which are different) ... try ogni, oni, onni (the last two are not really words in Italian, but I notice most English native speakers have trouble recognizing the different between gn (like ñ in Spanish) n and nn)
ー 流光 ー
花地世
小 見獄の
林 かの中
一 な上は
茶 の
花地世
小 見獄の
林 かの中
一 な上は
茶 の
Re: What makes Japanese so difficult?
I've been using Genki for a few days. I've been going through the first 3 lessons, but I actually really want to take it slow to remember the various words and grammar points. It kind of reminds of German (I previously studied this) where you sometimes have "strange exceptions" in spots. I was going over the various words for the times of day and how the numbers aren't the same. Yoji instead of yonji for 4:00. I know Kanji can have different readings and such.
These little things can be gotten used to fairly easily. I think the real tough part will be getting the grammar down and being able to write something (which I hope to use the practice forum for when I feel I can do it). The other tough part will be all those Kanji. I am still having occasional mixups with Hiragana, but thankfully it's not too common. The real trick will be when I can read those without having to briefly pause and think of what each character is one by one.
But this is all for recreation for me, so that makes it a bit easier.
These little things can be gotten used to fairly easily. I think the real tough part will be getting the grammar down and being able to write something (which I hope to use the practice forum for when I feel I can do it). The other tough part will be all those Kanji. I am still having occasional mixups with Hiragana, but thankfully it's not too common. The real trick will be when I can read those without having to briefly pause and think of what each character is one by one.

But this is all for recreation for me, so that makes it a bit easier.