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十二国記 discussion

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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 03.23.2009 12:52 am

Sorry to everyone. I totally forgot that last night was the discussion night. I was thinking that it was next week for some reason. When is the next session?
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Mon 03.23.2009 5:30 am

It's alright, Beckiさん。 :P
We didn't fix next discussion schedule. However, we had agreed on completing section 4 for this chapter at least, by posting in the thread.

Caroline wrote:
...... which might be the end as far as I'm concerned, as I have, as you may have noticed, not developped a strong liking for the style.


Right now we face copyright issue, and Caroline doesn't quite like this novel, leaving Kat and me だけ. Image


Section 4
1)Pg 32 白い枝の下に。。。。 to 「誰か!」
2)Page 33 枝に搔き切られて。。。。 to 「そのように泣くでない。。」
3)Page 35 呟きながら。。。。 to 36 End of Chapter 1

I'll take no. 1. Thanks
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby caroline » Mon 03.23.2009 8:18 pm

And I'll take whatever Katafei does not want, if she posts before the end of the week. :)
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Mon 04.27.2009 9:58 pm

1)Pg 32 白い枝の下に。。。。 to 汕子は呆然と白い枝を見上げた。

I understand this whole chunk was about Sanshi cringing under the white branch waiting passionately for Taiki to hatch. But just when her heart was filled with joy and pride, something suddenly befell her. (蝕, Rich san has explained to us >>> Rich : in this series, is the disaster (could be storm, could be earthquake) that causes things from one world to pass to the other.). The golden fruit (Taiki’s taika) was swept away to another world.

My questions:
1) 熟した実をもぐその瞬間を思うと、汕子の身体《からだ》は涙の温度をしたものでいっぱいになる。
Sorry, I can’t parse this sentence.
When Sanshi thought of the fruit going to ripe ...... she was full of tears (tears of joy)???
What does もぐ imply here?
もぐ --- (v5g) (kanji is JIS212 3f78) to pluck (usually from a tree); to pick (e.g. apples)

2) 突然それは襲ってきた。
Does this imply >>> Something attacked?

3) 「誰か!」Does this mean "somebody, help ...... "

4)「誰か、止めて──!」 ----- "Somebody, stop it ...... "

5)指先と金の実の間の距離は絶望的なまでに遠かった。
The distance between her fingertip and the golden fruit was getting desperately farther ??

6) この世に生まれ、泰麒と呼んだ、そのほかに発した初めての声は悲鳴だった。虚《むな》しいばかりの叫びだったのである。When Sanshi first came into the world, Taiki was the name she called. And next voice she made was such a sorrowful crying for Taiki. There was no reply from the deep cavity she kept screaming ...... ??

7) 始まったときと同じく、唐突にそれは終わった。
It ended suddenly the same how it was started. ??


----
I'll finish up the rest if Kat and Caro are too busy ......
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Tue 04.28.2009 11:45 am

SS wrote:1)Pg 32 白い枝の下に。。。。 to 汕子は呆然と白い枝を見上げた。

I understand this whole chunk was about Sanshi cringing under the white branch waiting passionately for Taiki to hatch. But just when her heart was filled with joy and pride, something suddenly befell her. (蝕, Rich san has explained to us >>> Rich : in this series, is the disaster (could be storm, could be earthquake) that causes things from one world to pass to the other.). The golden fruit (Taiki’s taika) was swept away to another world.

My questions:
1) 熟した実をもぐその瞬間を思うと、汕子の身体《からだ》は涙の温度をしたものでいっぱいになる。
Sorry, I can’t parse this sentence.
When Sanshi thought of the fruit going to ripe ...... she was full of tears (tears of joy)???
What does もぐ imply here?
もぐ --- (v5g) (kanji is JIS212 3f78) to pluck (usually from a tree); to pick (e.g. apples)

When Sanshi thought it was time to pluck the ripe fruit, ...

2) 突然それは襲ってきた。
Does this imply >>> Something attacked?

3) 「誰か!」Does this mean "somebody, help ...... "

Just calling for someone, I think.

4)「誰か、止めて──!」 ----- "Somebody, stop it ...... "

5)指先と金の実の間の距離は絶望的なまでに遠かった。
The distance between her fingertip and the golden fruit was getting desperately farther ??

I don't think there's change in distance here (which would have been 遠くなった.) The distance from her fingertips to the golden fruit was so far it was hopeless.

6) この世に生まれ、泰麒と呼んだ、そのほかに発した初めての声は悲鳴だった。虚《むな》しいばかりの叫びだったのである。When Sanshi first came into the world, Taiki was the name she called. And next voice she made was such a sorrowful crying for Taiki. There was no reply from the deep cavity she kept screaming ...... ??

It was a cry of nothing but emptiness. (Look up 虚しい)

7) 始まったときと同じく、唐突にそれは終わった。
It ended suddenly the same how it was started. ??


It ended as suddenly as it started.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Wed 04.29.2009 10:40 am

Rich san, thank you very much.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Sat 05.02.2009 2:46 am

While I'm still waiting for Caro and Kat, I'm re-watching episode 39 and would like to understand how Youko's speech to the court is interpreted and its grammar. Thanks in advance.

There is a short re-cap on the paper, it says >>
(Except receiving guests and certain ceremony) She bans bowing (in court) as she feels that bowing does more harm than good to everyone. She believes that when someone respects you wholeheartedly, that, they will bow to you naturally. One must have courage and earn respect, not by rule or force to respect. That’s the ideal Kingdom Youko is going to build.

((人はね、真実(じんじつ)相手に感谢し、心から尊敬するのを感じたときには、自然に頭をさがるものだ ...... ))
人は誰の奴隷でもない、そんことのために生まれるのじゃない ....
他者に虐げられても屈する(くっする)ない心 ......
災厄(さいやく)に襲われても、挫けるない心 ......
不正があれば、糺すことを恐れず、豺虎に媚(こび)ず

My attempts:
We are not the slaves of anybody nor born to be slaves
Never give in even if being bullied and oppressed
Never be discouraged even if a disaster hits
When faced with injustice correct them with courage and bravery
Do not ingratiate or give in yourself to beast act.

Edit:
屈するない心 ( heart/mind/spirit that will never surrender) ?
挫けることのない心 ( heart/mind/spirit that will never crush ) ?
Last edited by ss on Tue 05.05.2009 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Tue 05.05.2009 7:34 am

Was trying to find that speech in the book, so far unsuccessfully. I think you're missing a のbetween the verb and ない.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Tue 05.05.2009 8:49 am

Richさん、お帰りなさい!

Sorry, there is typo up there.
I was watching the vcd actually. Just found it in 風の万里 黎明の空(下) Page 361

「人はね、景麒」
「真実、相手に感謝し、心から尊敬の念を感じたときには、自然に頭が下がるものだ。。。。。。。。。行為のように感じる」
「私は、慶の民の誰もに、王になってもらいたい」。。。。。。。。。。。。
「地位でもって礼を強要し、他者を …。。。。。。。。。 人は誰の奴隷(どれい)でもない。そんなことのために生まれるのじゃない。他者に虐(しいた)げられても屈することない心、災厄(さいやく)に襲われても挫(くじ)けることのない心、不正があれば|糾《ただ》すことを恐れず、豺虎(けだもの)に媚(こ)びず、 ----- 私は慶の民にそんな不羈《ふき》の民になってほしい。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Page 34 「そこにはもう金の光は見えなかった 。。。。。。。。必ず泰麒は探し出してみしょう」

1)無に散った髪をなで、傷だらけになった身体をなでた。
How do you read this part --- 傷 だらけに なった身体 ?
The hair that scattered and a body that was full of wound ....

2) よりによって、麒麟が実ったときに
Of all things .................. ??

3) 腕の中の女怪は絶叫している
絶叫 【ぜっきょう】 (n,vs) exclamation; scream; shout
This implies that nyokai (Sanshi) in her arm is crying bitterly ??

4) 玉葉の想像に余った
余る 【あまる】 (v5r,vi) to remain; to be left over; to be in excess; to be too many
Gyokuyou could imagine her pain..... ??

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Page 35 - 36
「呟きながら、己に言い聞かせる。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。虚海の東をさまよう汕子の姿が目撃された。」

1) 呟きながら、己に言い聞かせる
Gyokuyou was comforting/persuading Sanshi, at the same time, she was murmuring to herself...

2) ..........そなたの手に泰麒を戻してやろうほどに
...... will return Taiki to you as quickly as possible
Is the kanji for this そなた [汝]?
We have this 汝 in Chinese, pronouns as ru(3), means YOU (female )

3) 「はい。ただいま」
Yes, right away!
This is the first time come across ただいま as "right away"

4) 蝕はこの世と、。。。。。。。。。。。。一方は世界の果てに、もう一方は世界の影に位置すると伝えられる
Shoku are able to travel between this world and another. ...............
影に位置すると伝えられる = a place where light will not shine through ??
Hourai (蓬莱): The name for Japan in the Twelve Kingdoms. It is also referred to as Wa. Hourai can be accessed by passing through a shoku.
Shoku (蝕): A magical storm that connects the Twelve Kingdoms to the real world. Kirin and rulers are capable of summoning shoku to cross between the worlds, though the consequence of bringing rulers across the Void Sea from Twelve Kingdoms tends to result in more severe damage than if the inverse occurred. Additionally, kirin are capable of invoking smaller shoku known as meishoku under extreme stress or danger.


5) その真偽はともかく 。。。。。。。。世界をつなぐことができた。
In any case, whether it was true or false .......

6) その日から長く、蓬山の東、虚海の東をさまよう汕子の姿が目撃された。
目撃 【もくげき】 (vs) (1) to observe; to witness; (adj-f) (2) eye-witness;
How is this 長く here connected to  その日から? (From that day onward ??)
people can see Sanshi searching for Taiki at east of Mt. Hou in the Yellow Sea 


~ END OF CHAPTER 1 ~
Last edited by ss on Wed 05.06.2009 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Tue 05.05.2009 11:20 pm

SS wrote:Richさん、お帰りなさい!

Sorry, there is typo up there.
I was watching the vcd actually. Just found it in 風の万里 黎明の空(下) Page 361

「人はね、景麒」
「真実、相手に感謝し、心から尊敬の念を感じたときには、自然に頭が下がるものだ。。。。。。。。。行為のように感じる」
「私は、慶の民の誰もに、王になってもらいたい」。。。。。。。。。。。。
「地位でもって礼を強要し、他者を …。。。。。。。。。 人は誰の奴隷(どれい)でもない。そんなことのために生まれるのじゃない。他者に虐(しいた)げられても屈することない心、災厄(さいやく)に襲われても挫(くじ)けることのない心、不正があれば|糾《ただ》すことを恐れず、豺虎(けだもの)に媚(こ)びず、 ----- 私は慶の民にそんな不羈《ふき》の民になってほしい。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。

People aren't anyone's slaves. That isn't what they are born for. Hearts that do not yield to being tyrannized by anyone else, hearts that are not crushed by any disaster, without being afraid to investigate if there is injustice, without flattering beasts... I want the people of Kei to become free people like that.



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Page 34 「そこにはもう金の光は見えなかった 。。。。。。。。必ず泰麒は探し出してみしょう」

1)無残に散った髪をなで、傷だらけになった身体をなでた。
How do you read this part --- 傷 だらけに なった身体 ?
The hair that scattered and a body that was full of wound ....[/quote]

Stroked the hair that was miserably/cruelly scattered, patted the body that had become full of wounds. (It's 無惨, not 無残 in my book, though the kanji choice doesn't seem to make a difference.)

2) よりによって、麒麟が実ったときに
Of all things .................. ??

Of all things, at the time when the Kirin was hatched.

3) 腕の中の女怪は絶叫している
絶叫 【ぜっきょう】 (n,vs) exclamation; scream; shout
This implies that nyokai (Sanshi) in her arm is crying bitterly ??


Screaming at the top of her lungs, I think, after checking a 国語辞典.

4) 玉葉の想像に余った
余る 【あまる】 (v5r,vi) to remain; to be left over; to be in excess; to be too many
Gyokuyou could imagine her pain..... ??

It was beyond Gyokuyou's imagination.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Page 35 - 36
「呟きながら、己に言い聞かせる。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。虚海の東をさまよう汕子の姿が目撃された。」

1) 呟きながら、己に言い聞かせる
Gyokuyou was comforting/persuading Sanshi, at the same time, she was murmuring to herself...

2) ..........そなたの手に泰麒を戻してやろうほどに
...... will return Taiki to you as quickly as possible
Is the kanji for this そなた [汝]?
We have this 汝 in Chinese, pronouns as ru(3), means YOU (female )

While that kanji appears for this word in edict, it isn't in Daijisen or Daijirin. It's usually written in kana in modern Japanese, and if it is in kanji, it's more likely to be 其方 (which doesn't even show up in the IME.)

3) 「はい。ただいま」
Yes, right away!
This is the first time come across ただいま as "right away"

4) 蝕はこの世と、。。。。。。。。。。。。一方は世界の果てに、もう一方は世界の影に位置すると伝えられる
Shoku are able to travel between this world and another. ...............
影に位置すると伝えられる = a place where light will not shine through ??
Hourai (蓬莱): The name for Japan in the Twelve Kingdoms. It is also referred to as Wa. Hourai can be accessed by passing through a shoku.
Shoku (蝕): A magical storm that connects the Twelve Kingdoms to the real world. Kirin and rulers are capable of summoning shoku to cross between the worlds, though the consequence of bringing rulers across the Void Sea from Twelve Kingdoms tends to result in more severe damage than if the inverse occurred. Additionally, kirin are capable of invoking smaller shoku known as meishoku under extreme stress or danger.

蓬莱 seems to me to refer to our world, not specifically Japan. 和 is specifically Japan. 蝕 also affect China.

5) その真偽はともかく 。。。。。。。。世界をつなぐことができた。
In any case, whether it was true or false .......

6) その日から長く、蓬山の東、虚海の東をさまよう汕子の姿が目撃された。
目撃 【もくげき】 (vs) (1) to observe; to witness; (adj-f) (2) eye-witness;
How is this 長く here connected to  その日から? (From that day onward ??)
people can see Sanshi searching for Taiki at east of Mt. Hou in the Yellow Sea 


~ END OF CHAPTER 1 ~


黄海, not 虚海. "For a long time after that day, people say Sanshi roaming east of Houzan, east of Koukai (Yellow Sea)."
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Wed 05.06.2009 9:35 pm

My father was talking about these 豺・狼・虎・豹
These 4 words can be seen in many history books and some classical novel, they are used mainly to describe people being evil and cruel and ferocious, especially those with high rank official position. In Chinese history, he thinks that Emperor Zhou is the worst emperor in history. An extremely arbitrary form of torture known as the "Human Grill" ( Pao Luo 炮烙 in Chinese) that was used under the rule of this tyrant Emperor Zhou. And many other cruel methods like burning practitioners' backs with boiling water and then forcefully scrubbing the wounds with salt; raping female practitioners; cutting pregnant mothers abdomen to see the baby is boy or girl, force practitioners to drink drugs that damage their central nervous systems.

I think in Japanese he is described as 殷紂王( いんちゅうおう) - Emperor Zhou, Yin Dynasty (of China)--- 暴君の代表.

In Chinese, 豺狼虎豹 is kind of an idiom to describe extremely cruel people.

I check http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn/732 ... %E8%B1%BA/ 国語辞典.

豺狼 さいろう - 貪欲で残酷な人のたとえに使う
豺虎 さいこ - 猛悪な人にたとえていう

The book has reading as けだもの (豺虎)
I think when Youko says this, she is referring to Shoko, especially. (In 風の万里、黎明の空)

Rich-san, I appreciated all your help (both thread and chat session) and the corrections and explanations rendered, it really helped me to understand this story a litter better especially with so many difficult kanji and poetic diction.

I like this novel series very much. I might come back with questions. I hope to see you around soon. Thanks again.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby richvh » Thu 05.07.2009 12:55 am

豺虎 is used to refer to two people... the ruler of 和州 and, in particular, his subordinate, the ruler of 拓峰.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Thu 05.07.2009 2:26 am

Uncle Rich has good memory!! Thank you.

I'm flipping through chapter 18 to 21 right now, just notice that 桓魋(かんたい) is actually a Hanjyuu (半獣), a very big 熊! ^^;

------
昇紘(しょうこう)と呀峰(がほう)?!
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby ss » Sun 01.31.2010 11:16 pm

風の海、迷宮の岸
In previous chapters, we learned that a young boy, Taiki (高里 in modern Japan), his Ranka was caught in the Shoku and flowed down to Horai (Japan). This boy felt that he didn’t belong to his family in Horai, he accepted his destiny as a Kirin to choose a King in Tai Kingdom. Now, the problem with Taiki initially was, he was unable to transform himself into Kirin’s original beast shape, he had no confident transforming himself and to choose a King, and that he didn’t have any shireis (servants) to guard him, until chapter 5 as I read …….

In chapter 6, Lady Gyokuyo invited Keiki to motivate Taiki to practise transformation and to tame shireis. There are 2 long paragraphs (in blue color) I can’t totally comprehend.

飛鼠(ひそ)というのは、妖魔(ようま)の種族(しゅぞく)の名前。これの名はジャッコです。。。。。。。雀胡(じゃっこ)の喉元をくすぐる。
Hiso is the name for this youma’s species. This one is called Jakko. ………. Taiki tickled its neck. (Okay with this paragraph)

Page 156
灌ホの下で樣子を窺っていた雀胡を示したのは泰麒だった。逃げようとする雀胡に向かって景麒が何事かを唱え、振り返った妖魔と見合う(みあう)ことしばし。再び景麒が何事かを言い、名を呼ぶや否や、雀胡はすすんで景麒の足元(あしもと)にやってきた。
それが折伏(しゃくぶく)のすべてで、もっと何か緊迫した儀式を想像していた泰麒には气抜けするほどあっけなく思われた。

何事 【なにごと】 (n) (1) what; something; everything; (2) nothing (with neg. verb); EP
唱える 【となえる】 (v1,vt) (1) to recite; to chant; (2) to call upon;
見合う 【みあう】 (v5u) (1) to exchange glances; (2) to correspond; to counterbalance;
しばし (adv) for a short while; for a brief period

Taiki discovered Jakko hiding in a bush and secretly watching it. Jakko was about to run away, Keiki chanted something, Jakko turned back and glared at Keiki for a moment . After Keiki finished another chant on it, he called out its name, Jakko obediently came over to his side.
So this was a taming. Taiki imagined it should be something more exciting, he was kind of disappointed. (??)

气抜けするほどあっけなく思われた。<< How do you interpret this sentence? Feeling a bit discouraged as in disappointment?

「いつもこんなにか簡単なんですか?」 That easy?

「飛鼠は小物だから簡単に済んだ。大物だとこうはまいりません。見合って半日を過したこともある。」

What exactly does this とこう mean?

It was very easy because hiso is a small creature. It wouldn’t be the same if it was a big creature. It might last half a day to glare at each other.

先に気を散じたほうが負けです。逃げていくような小物ならば大事はないが、相手が大物だと気が緩んだ瞬間に命を取られることになりかねない。視線が合って、これは駄目だと思ったら、睨み合う前に逃げほうがよろしい。------ もっとも、相手が大物だと転変でもしないかぎり、逃げるのも難しいが。

Does 気を散じた mean “lose concentration”?

気が緩ん 【きがゆるん】 (n) lack of vigilance

The first to lose concentration is going to be defeated. It’s nothing serious if it's just a small youma that runs away, but if it's a powerful youma, it might attack your lack of vigilance and take your life. So, if you are not confident, it’s better to run away quickly before you begin to glare at each other. However, if it's a very strong youma, it gets difficult to run away unless you are able to transform into a Kirin.

[Continue with Taiki's conversation ......]

景麒は苦笑した。

「自分の手に負えないような妖魔がいれば、出会う前に女怪が教えてくれます。注意していれば、泰麒にもお分かりになる。所詮獣は敵の気配には敏感なもの。」

所詮 【しょせん】 (adv) after all
獣 【けだもの; けもの】 (n) beast; brute
敵 【てき; かたき】 (n) (1) enemy; rival; (2) opponent; (3) revenge
気配 【けはい】 (n) (1) indication; sign; hint; presence; trend; (2) quotation (esp. stock market)
敏感な 【びんかんな】 (adj-na,n) sensibility; susceptibility; sensitive (to); well attuned to

If it's a youma you cannot defeat, your nyokai will tell you before you encounter it. If you pay enough attention, you will also able to sense it. After all, beasts like us are very sensitive to the presence of enemies.

睨み合って、相手が根負けをすると、相手の覇気が緩む。その時に相手の名前を読み取るのです。よくは分からないが、多分そうなのだと思う。ふっと、頭の中に音が湧いてくるのですよ。それで呼んでやると、妖魔はすすんで足元にやってくる。以後二度と、麒麟に逆らったりはいたしません。麒麟が死んで解放されるまでは。

睨み合う 【にらみあう】 (v5u,vi) to glare at each other
相手 【あいて】 (n) (1) companion; partner; company; (2) other party; addressee; (3) opponent
根負け 【こんまけ】 (n,vs) being beaten down by one's opponent's persistence; being outlasted; running out of patience
すると (conj) thereupon; hereupon
覇気 【はき】 (n) ambition; aspiration
緩む 【ゆるむ】 (v5m) to become loose; to slacken
読み取る 【よみとる】 (v5r,vt) (1) to read (someone's) mind; to read between the lines; (2) to read (a calibration, a tape, etc.); to read (out)
ふっと (adv) - with a whiff

(睨み合って、相手が根負けをすると、相手の覇気が緩む。) << :sweatdrop:
At that time, you will be able to read its name. I don’t actually understand everything about this, that’s how it is. In a short time, a name will suddenly appear in your mind naturally. When you call out its name, the youma will come to your side and serve you. Thereafter, it will never disobey you. It will be set free until the day Kirin die.


よろしくお願いします。


********
すみませんが、もう一度、下記の短句ご確認させて下さい。

自信がないからできないのか、できないから自信がないのか。
育ちのせいで卑屈になるのか。
いつもいつも謝ってばかりの泰麒。

Is it because you have no confidence that you cannot do it or because it’s impossible as such you are not confident?
Have you become wobbly due to your upbringing?
Taiki who never does anything but apologize.
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Re: 十二国記 discussion

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 02.01.2010 12:41 am

SS wrote:「飛鼠は小物だから簡単に済んだ。大物だとこうはまいりません。見合って半日を過したこともある。」

What exactly does this とこう mean?


It's 大物だと こう は まいりません -- "If it were a big item..."
-Chris Kern
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