How long have you studied Japanese (in hours).

[nukemarine]

I like Mike's take on it. He's using Japanese to do his job. Mistakes in that could lead to problems especially with him being a truck driver (insert comment about some product delivered to the wrong location with humorous consequences).

It's the above that sort of returns to the idea of the thread. I'm asking about studying. Now in my mind, when you read manga or short novels or when you watch television (sans English subs) or when you listen to music you're not studying or practicing. You're enjoying the language and reinforcing it. When you're testing yourself on stuff you learned or try to learn new items, that's studying.

I wouldn't call speaking in the 2nd language practice as much as I'd call it reinforcement. I don't even think it's good reinforcement early on. Personally, if you cannot fluently (well, fluidly) read off Japanese from a written source (say, the page of a drama script or manga), then what makes you think you can be more fluid with creative speaking? Ok, that only applies if you're able to read Japanese.

[NocturnalOcean]

I don't quite understand what you mean is studying though.
Reading manga, reading novels, watching movies, drama, anime, speaking Japanese, neither of these are stuyding to you it seems. Do you only consider repetetive flashcards studying?

[furrykef]

I don't find SRSing to be that repetitive. Certainly it feels much less repetitive than traditional (non-SRS) flash cards.

I do agree that it seems silly to exclude those things as studying, though. But we're getting dangerously close to a terminology debate here.

- Kef

[Mike Cash]

I don't quite understand what you mean is studying though.
Reading manga, reading novels, watching movies, drama, anime, speaking Japanese, neither of these are stuyding to you it seems. Do you only consider repetetive flashcards studying?

Engaging in those activities for the express purpose of learning new items or helping to review/internalize already learned items is studying. Engaging in those activities for the sole purpose of deriving enjoyment or acquiring information (especially without looking things up) is just plain old reading, watching, and speaking; it is just that the language happens to be different.

[NocturnalOcean]

I don't quite understand what you mean is studying though.
Reading manga, reading novels, watching movies, drama, anime, speaking Japanese, neither of these are stuyding to you it seems. Do you only consider repetetive flashcards studying?

Engaging in those activities for the express purpose of learning new items or helping to review/internalize already learned items is studying. Engaging in those activities for the sole purpose of deriving enjoyment or acquiring information (especially without looking things up) is just plain old reading, watching, and speaking; it is just that the language happens to be different.

Yeah I agree with you there. It just sounded to me like he meant studying(the hours he counts) were only limited to static repetition of something.

[nukemarine]

I don't quite understand what you mean is studying though.
Reading manga, reading novels, watching movies, drama, anime, speaking Japanese, neither of these are stuyding to you it seems. Do you only consider repetetive flashcards studying?

Engaging in those activities for the express purpose of learning new items or helping to review/internalize already learned items is studying. Engaging in those activities for the sole purpose of deriving enjoyment or acquiring information (especially without looking things up) is just plain old reading, watching, and speaking; it is just that the language happens to be different.

Yeah I agree with you there. It just sounded to me like he meant studying(the hours he counts) were only limited to static repetition of something.

For my case, that is it in part. Mike Cash nailed it on the head. Although I don't remember the thread, a topic dealt with the number of hours needed to pass JLPT1. The pat answer was 900 hours via the JLPT developers site. One person replied "Good, I can watch 900 hours of anime and be there in no time". I think that person's reply was one of the reason's I posted this question.

By the way, the repetition part based on the time invested is about: 2 minutes per new sentence, with 4 more minutes (about 4 more reviews) to get that sentence and the attached reason for it (vocabulary, grammar, cool saying) into long term memory with the ability to read it and write it perfectly. That's unique only to me and the manner I study/review.

I stopped rushing to the dictionary when I began reading for fun. I stopped worrying about following the plot 100% when I watch shows. I let my study time be my study time. The results were my entertainment was fun, and the side benefit is it reinforces my Japanese. However, what I was noticing (and another reason for this thread) was the more I studied, the more enjoyment I got from the entertainment. So yeah, although I separate what I consider enjoyment and study, the enjoyment portion is still essential to getting better at Japanese.

Personally, I like Mike Cash's reply that he has not studied Japanese in almost(?) twenty years. In my mind, I see a point where I stop determined study and go only for living in Japanese (whatever the heck that may mean).

[two_heads_talking]

I think every person who knows Japanese as a 2nd language is always 'practicing conversation' it might feel real, but it's just all practice.

So when my boss called me a few minutes ago and said tomorrow I should go to 梓の森 and pick up a load for 梶ヶ谷, then go down to 府中 and grab another load to deliver to 草加 he was just helping me "practice"? Nice to know. Now I can take the day off tomorrow and not worry about it; he was just helping me practice my Japanese, after all.

There are those of us for whom speaking Japanese is not just an academic exercise.

(And I think your comment applies more to people who are learning Japanese as a foreign language....not as a second language).

If that's how you took what I said, then perhaps you're completely fluent, however, I do remember you saying that you are still learning, so either you've completely done a 180 on your prior statements or you are just taking the piss here. But hey, I'm game, So, when your boss called you, he spoke in Kanji? That's impressive, I've never met someone who could do that.

I never said practicing was the same as being an academic exercise, you picked those words. Perhaps you are right in verbage of foreign vs second, but at that point it's a matter of semantics.