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Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Do you have any suggestions to the page's content and such?

Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby phreadom » Tue 06.02.2009 5:00 pm

I added a few resized ones for comparison... what do you think about those?

I've also updated the examples page to include a number of test sizes at the bottom to show how they look at different sizes etc.

http://thejapanesepage.com/onion-tjp-smilies/
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 06.02.2009 5:36 pm

phreadom wrote:This isn't an attack on you at all. :( I am honestly sorry if it came across that way. Almost everyone here is very helpful the vast majority of the time, if not all the time. Almost everyone is very friendly and goes out of their way to welcome people and be helpful etc. However, sometimes a few people people, even moderators themselves, happen to take jabs at newbies... maybe out of a sense of frustration, or they're just having a bad day... I don't know... but it happens.


I didn't take it as a personal attack on me, but you seemed to be making a general indictment of forum behavior rather than isolated incidents. I agree that people should not take jabs at newbies, even ones that appear clueless (perhaps especially ones that appear clueless). I don't like the constant harping on things like "romanji" and 今日は; I think they have very little substance and may contribute to the feeling some have that there's a closed community where you have to learn all the shibboleths to participate.

Both Clay and myself have received messages in the past from users who felt this way and who decided to leave the site permanently, and I've had several people say that they really only come in the chat anymore because of this general vibe from the forum, and these people are far more skilled than I am. One of them humorously keeps getting mistaken for being a Japanese native by other Japanese that come on the chat, even though Japanese is his third language, and English his second... and yet he still feels that bit of discomfort in the forum.


I wish these people would give more detailed explanations of why they don't feel welcome.

If people really feel like these would be detrimental to the site then I guess I'd just have to figure something else out... but I'm trying to weigh the options right now and get a number of opinions.... and I guess my personality as a debater tends to creep in a little when it comes to defending my point of view. :P


Just to restate my position, I am adamantly opposed to any sort of *animated* smilies, but other than that, I am fairly neutral on these new suggested icons -- I don't particularly like them, but I don't particularly dislike them either.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby phreadom » Tue 06.02.2009 6:14 pm

And hey, I don't particularly care for the little "alien head" shaped smilies we have now. :P I liked the round ones. ;)

Maybe we can make a compromise and just use a subset of the "onion" ones, and resize them down to 2/3 the original size etc so they don't jump out as much?

I can sympathize with the idea that adding a bunch of the full size ones could be a bit much and shift the feel of the forum in a not necessarily positive direction. ;)
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Harisenbon » Tue 06.02.2009 8:27 pm

phreadom wrote:And hey, I don't particularly care for the little "alien head" shaped smilies we have now. :P I liked the round ones. ;)


I actually don't like the alien head ones either. They make me think that there's something wrong with my eyes, because I feel that they SHOULD be round (and some of them ARE round) while some of them are slightly pointed or really pointed.

I like the 33x33 (or 30x30) size. Anything smaller than that, and it becomes harder to read.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Gundaetiapo » Tue 06.02.2009 8:49 pm

More variety the better I think. It'd be best if they're as small as the current ones.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby coco » Tue 06.02.2009 8:55 pm

phreadom wrote: However, sometimes a few people people, even moderators themselves, happen to take jabs at newbies... maybe out of a sense of frustration, or they're just having a bad day... I don't know... but it happens.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13253

There's one from just a few days ago where I thought the response was rude and completely unhelpful, from a moderator.

As for this thread, OP was asking us a translation in the introduction forum. I didn't think Keat's response was helpful to OP, but I know he is the person who made this thread. And I am sure that what keat has said there is quite right.

If I was in the chat room and was asked the same question as OP had asked, I would answer the question, however I didn't want to make a post in the forum. I think the chat room and forums are different in functions and purpose.

Could you please point out some specific threads/posts you felt them made people drive away from forums so that I or we can reconsider my/our intolerant elitist attitude?
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Infidel » Tue 06.02.2009 10:21 pm

I'm not big on animated smilies either. Nothing against them in principle, but having 2 animated pictures, or one big animated picture in one post is a little annoying. Those particular smilies I've only seen on anime goo sites or mmo sites for younger teen audience. It definitely changes the character of the forums.

Once I followed the link of Tony's smilies and ripped his entire directory. But I rarely use them. ImageImageImageImage

If this site really is too intimidating, it's probably the scholarly nature of the respondants. I wonder how a sister site dedicated to kids/teens would do. Using a different format and catering specifically to a younger audience.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby ss » Tue 06.02.2009 11:59 pm

I’m a bit reluctant to respond as I think you are making some "absurd" comments of this forum as a whole.

If the only intention of this thread is to add a few smileys that you think can change the atmosphere here, you can just go ahead without asking for opinion. I still remember you once told me you were the head admin of the entire website. I know I am not in the position to question Clay or any other admin, but I was shock why you addressed yourself as the head admin!

I admit that I have not been in the chat room for about a month. I don’t know who else are active in the chat room. BUT, every time I went in, there were always the same old few members there, once in a while two or three newbies appeared, but they didn’t stay long, and most of the time, the room was very quiet. It sometimes did have interesting conversations went on, but not that much. I guess that's the reason I don't feel like joining the chatroom.

I too do not generally see people here criticizing beginners for making mistakes in their questions or attempts, on the contrary, they are extremely helpful and they even care trying different ways or methods to get things across. Considering myself as a higher beginner, I don’t always understand the answers and explanation, but that’s exactly the reason why a forum is here. A bit of disagreement, conflicts or even argument are not bad things. Why don’t newbies post their thoughts here instead of complaining in the chat room?

To be honest with you, if we could vote for a head admin, I would prefer Zengargoyle. Like most of the senior members here, he has been very helpful and he is a very cheerful and bubbly person.

Like it or not, you can ban me from saying this or you can just delete my post.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Sairana » Wed 06.03.2009 4:15 am

I don't like them, to be honest. I think they're ugly. :P

For cute emoticons, I've always liked the ones that look like little floating blobs, but I can't remember what they're called. Usually they look like a puff of whipped cream with a face and possibly some other adornments.

Once upon a time I was trying to learn to make animated gifs, and used said face-blobs because I thought they were both cute and easy to animate... so for example I'll post the image. Don't laugh too much, I was a newbie and eventually abandoned this hobby:

Image

If you know what these are called and can find emoticons based on them, I'd be very much in favor of those over the ugly onion things.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby phreadom » Wed 06.03.2009 6:09 am

Sairana wrote:For cute emoticons, I've always liked the ones that look like little floating blobs, but I can't remember what they're called. Usually they look like a puff of whipped cream with a face and possibly some other adornments.


I know the ones you're talking about. :) I don't know what they're called though. They were actually one of the 3 sets I was looking at, along with a set of little guys with eggs for heads. :P
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby Gundaetiapo » Wed 06.03.2009 6:16 am

Wtf are you on about SS.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby ss » Wed 06.03.2009 6:53 am

Stop being rude Gunda!

It's just too bad being a regular and knowing several people and things behind here.

I don't find it fair to pick on the regulars here just because they dropped one or two posts didn't appear to be friendly! There are tons of other posts proved that they are very helpful and considerate, why is there a need to post a thread asking opinion on new smilies and turn into criticizing the regulars??

Someone can be so straight forward and I can't?
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby phreadom » Wed 06.03.2009 7:04 am

SS wrote:I’m a bit reluctant to respond as I think you are making some "absurd" comments of this forum as a whole.

If the only intention of this thread is to add a few smileys that you think can change the atmosphere here, you can just go ahead without asking for opinion. I still remember you once told me you were the head admin of the entire website. I know I am not in the position to question Clay or any other admin, but I was shock why you addressed yourself as the head admin!

I admit that I have not been in the chat room for about a month. I don’t know who else are active in the chat room. BUT, every time I went in, there were always the same old few members there, once in a while two or three newbies appeared, but they didn’t stay long, and most of the time, the room was very quiet. It sometimes did have interesting conversations went on, but not that much. I guess that's the reason I don't feel like joining the chatroom.

I too do not generally see people here criticizing beginners for making mistakes in their questions or attempts, on the contrary, they are extremely helpful and they even care trying different ways or methods to get things across. Considering myself as a higher beginner, I don’t always understand the answers and explanation, but that’s exactly the reason why a forum is here. A bit of disagreement, conflicts or even argument are not bad things. Why don’t newbies post their thoughts here instead of complaining in the chat room?

To be honest with you, if we could vote for a head admin, I would prefer Zengargoyle. Like most of the senior members here, he has been very helpful and he is a very cheerful and bubbly person.

Like it or not, you can ban me from saying this or you can just delete my post.


I just think you (really) like Zen and have a big grudge against me for banning him for a day and taking away his admin status. While I have no obligation to explain to you why I did so, I have in fact HAVE explained it to you anyway, multiple times. I can't help that you can't understand the situation, or refuse to accept the facts.

I called myself the head admin because I am the one that handles the entire site, from the server up. I setup the software, the server, the databases, the DNS, the modules... I do the site design, updates, etc. My name is next to Clay's on the account at the company that hosts this entire website etc. Clay is of course the boss and I absolutely do what he says, but beyond that, I run the technical aspects of this site from the maintenance of the server itself to the design of the page you're looking at. Clay owns the site, creates most of the actual content, and makes the big decisions etc... the site admins are like site wide moderators who maintain order and help out with content, corrections etc... the moderators on the forum do that for more specific sections etc... and the techs (of which I am really the only one now) handle more technical aspects of that.

So when someone comes along and starts fights with me every day for a week, tells me I have no idea what I'm doing, tells me everything I'm doing is wrong and how they're so much better than me, and threatens to hack into the server and delete all the databases because they have a grudge against me replacing them because they were gone for a year, I found that reasonable grounds for a 1 day ban and the removal of admin status, and Clay agreed with me. I'm sick of having to defend that decision, which was done MONTHS ago.

As for the chat, there are generally 10 to 12 people in there most of the time. Right now there are 5. Different people come and go every day, but we have a number of regular users we see almost every day. Dimension, LordOfTheFlies, whyorwhynot, Becki_Kanou (べっちゃん), ちーよん, popppop (まっちゃん), harisenbon, Raf, disco, denus, wakai, etc... and most importantly to you ZENGARGOYLE HIMSELF, who I made a moderator almost as soon as he came back, as he has largely shown himself to be reliable and helpful in the chat. Along with those people we have several new people a day and stop in and chat for a bit, some of which continue coming back, like squarezebra, and autumnbird who just started joining us.

Of course there are more things we could do to improve the experience, but you sitting here and starting a fight with me because you have a personal problem with me because of something I said or did that you don't like, in spite of there having been entirely valid reasons for having done so.... that doesn't help things at all. Zen himself just told me that he asked you not to start this argument with me. He and I have our disagreements, but we work them out between us.

As for the idea of this being an elitist atmosphere, my friend Scott, who programs the Japanese Learning Suite, the very project that led me to TJP in the first place, refuses to come to this forum anymore because of how he felt the moderators acted. The point here isn't to go back and try digging up posts here now and showing where someone was rude, it's to understand that people have said those things, including one of my best friends... and to try to understand why and how we might be able to avoid that and make the forum a better place.

My intention here is not to attack particular moderators, to point fingers, to say this is a bad place, and it frankly angers me that people are acting like that's what I'm doing. I very clearly said that almost EVERYONE on this forum is VERY nice, and VERY helpful almost ALL of the time.

The fact that Cocoさん herself would write such a seemingly angry post implying that I'm saying that she is elitist or intolerant is absurd! Coco has never been anything but profoundly polite and extremely helpful! Why would I possibly say something bad about her!?

I've tried to make this clear... some people, sometimes, say things that give people the impression that they need to do more research before they post, that they should know better than to make common newbie mistakes like "romanji" or "minnasan" or "konichiwa" etc... and maybe some people are just too sensitive about being corrected...

But the bottom line is that it is a fact that there have been complaints over the years, and people feel worried about making mistakes on the forum... which leads them not to participate as much as they might otherwise, or to simply leave and never come back like my friend Scott.

Honestly it really bothers me that it seems that now people have some horrible impression of me as a bad guy here when I've done nothing but try to be helpful and improve this website and this forum etc... and now I hear that people seem to have been harboring secret grudges about me? That there is some impression of me as some arrogant ruthless dictator who hides in the shadows starting trouble or something!? What the heck!?

*sigh*

This is depressing. I've been trying to help and I've been trying to be very careful about how I word things etc... and yet people are getting all up in arms and defensive as though I've attacked them personally and individually.

I suppose in a sense maybe that's a good representation of how the newbies feel when they get corrected by the moderators? Feelings easily hurt and misunderstandings of intention etc.

If nothing else, maybe at least this can serve as an example of how the newbies might be mistaking the intentions or words of the moderators and regulars and how their feelings might be getting hurt when that wasn't the intention.

We're all only human and it can happen to any of us.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby ss » Wed 06.03.2009 7:30 am

Phreadom,

Please be understand that I chimed in because you started picking on the regulars first.

Nobody is seeing you as a bad guy. You did explained to me many times. As I have mentioned to you many times as well, I do appreciate all your hard work since Zen left. It was not easy, you figured out everything by yourself and the site had improved a lot. Everyone appreciated that as far as I know. Some of us do like both of you, and I am not siding anyone!

Since you have the opportunity to meet newbies in the chat room, it’s also very essential that you tell them nicely and lead them to the forum.

Regulars here play a very important role in this community. Don’t you also see bad comments from newbies to regulars as well? Things like these happened everywhere. If newbies really have personal problem with that person, they have to learn to communicate with that particular person, and not just complaining somewhere else. It doesn't help solving the problems in long run. Regulars are mature and old enough to think.
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Re: Need feedback on possible new forum smilies. :)

Postby phreadom » Wed 06.03.2009 7:34 am

SS wrote:Phreadom,

Please be understand that I chimed in because you started picking on the regulars first.

Nobody is seeing you as bad guy. You did explained to me many times. As I have mentioned to you many times as well, I do appreciate all your hard work since Zen left. It was not easy, you figured out everything by yourself and the site had improved a lot. Everyone appreciated that as far as I know.

Since you have the opportunity to meet newbies in the chat room, it’s also very essential that you tell them nicely and lead them to the forum.

Regulars here play a very important role in this community. Don’t you also see bad comments from newbies to regulars as well? Things like these happened everywhere. If newbies really have personal problem with that person, they have to learn to communicate with that particular person, and not just complaining somewhere else. It doesn't help solving the problems in long run. Regulars are mature and old enough to think.


I wasn't trying to make a blanket accusation and I sincerely apologize if it came across like that. :( I then went on to make it VERY clear what I actually meant... and people still took it wrong. :(

I feel like just removing this whole thread and forgetting I ever asked about the stupid smilies. :( Hardly anyone seems to actually like them, most seem to hate them, and the topic just seemed to derail entirely and turn into a big mess of hurt feelings over the implication that there was anything wrong with the forum.

I love this forum, I love this site, and I love the people who help make it so great. I was just trying to maybe make it a little better. :(

*sigh*
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