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Mixed script languages

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Mixed script languages

Postby kentaku_sama » Wed 04.29.2009 1:25 am

As japanese is the only language in the world that still retains the use of multiple writing systems. korean used to use chinese characters called hanja but eventually they went to using nothing but korean. Example:

ex:

The korean alphabet only:
유구한 역사와 전통에 빛나는 우리 대한 국민은 3·1 운동으로 건립된 대한민국 임시 정부의 법통과 불의에 항거한 4·19 민주 이념을 계승하고, 조국의 민주 개혁과 평화적 통일의 사명에 입각하여 정의·인도와 동포애로써 민족의 단결을 공고히 하고, 모든 사회적 폐습과 불의를 타파하며, 자율과 조화를 바탕으로 자유 민주적 기본 질서를 더욱 확고히 하여 정치·경제·사회·문화의 모든 영역에 있어서 각인의 기회를 균등히 하고, 능력을 최고도로 발휘하게 하며, 자유와 권리에 따르는 책임과 의무를 완수하게 하여, 안으로는 국민 생활의 균등한 향상을 기하고 밖으로는 항구적인 세계 평화와 인류 공영에 이바지함으로써 우리들과 우리들의 자손의 안전과 자유와 행복을 영원히 확보할 것을 다짐하면서 1948년 7월 12일에 제정되고 8차에 걸쳐 개정된 헌법을 이제 국회의 의결을 거쳐 국민 투표에 의하여 개정한다.
1987년 10월 29일 前文

With hanja or kanji

悠久한 歷史와 傳統에 빛나는 우리 大韓國民은 3·1 運動으로 建立된 大韓民國臨時政府의 法統과 不義에 抗拒한 4·19 民主理念을 繼承하고, 祖國의 民主改革과 平和的統一의 使命에 立脚하여 正義·人道와 同胞愛로써 民族의 團結을 鞏固히 하고, 모든 社會的弊習과 不義를 打破하며, 自律과 調和를 바탕으로 自由民主的基本秩序를 더욱 確固히 하여 政治·經濟·社會·文化의 모든 領域에 있어서 各人의 機會를 均等히 하고, 能力을 最高度로 發揮하게 하며, 自由와 權利에 따르는 責任과 義務를 完遂하게 하여, 안으로는 國民生活의 均等한 向上을 基하고 밖으로는 恒久的인 世界平和와 人類共榮에 이바지함으로써 우리들과 우리들의 子孫의 安全과 自由와 幸福을 永遠히 確保할 것을 다짐하면서 1948年 7月 12日에 制定되고 8次에 걸쳐 改正된 憲法을 이제 國會의 議決을 거쳐 國民投票에 依하여 改正한다.
1987年 10月 29日


I don't know why they quit using it but I think alot of languages could use the mixed script:
For one is thai, which I cannot speak/read/ or write but can edit copy, edit paste from wiki to edit.

Here's thai with some random kanji symbols inserted all over the place just to see if it would look ok:

বিষ্ণুপ্রিয়া মণিপুরী 異 এহান環 ভারতর 項菜 অসম, 寝坊邪以、ত্রিপুরা, 弁蛇線 বারো 穂 故事, 碁簿মাদউ মায়া 殻韓 মা二語歯祖 বা 字উ আরাকউ 愛愛間痲 個度 কতহাত 鋸子 地 康侘 ইন্দো-端雫 ঠার 故事, 項菜 অহমীয়া, 譜 螺旋歩阿賀 血値 新徒臣 বিষ্ণুপ্রিয়া 歯駕我 ঠার এহান 野 みあ 観 以多雨身 বারো 間মণিপুর 家 হমবুকে 寄屡 চারিয়বারেদে 埜異 毛 অতাত হঙসেহান 異 মুঙবারেসেহান। ঠা我納 拿猫 বারাদে 手知 প火嘉 異 禰貫 পুরানা 婦誤 উৎসহান ১祖 শতাব্দীত 殻韓 প火嘉 নবখেন্দ্র শর্ম্মার "খু値碁 長" বুলতারা 綯鵜 এহাত 異 আরতা 螺旋歩阿賀 項菜 পেয়ারতা মেজর||||

I think thai looks good with the mixed script, though mixing scripts is one of the many things that makes the japanese language so attractive. What do you think?
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby furrykef » Wed 04.29.2009 1:40 am

kentaku_sama wrote:korean used to use chinese characters called hanja but eventually they went to using nothing but korean.


Korean still uses hanja. It just doesn't use them nearly as much as it used to. The North Korean government doesn't use them at all in its publications, but the North Korean public still does, and South Korea still uses hanja as well. Hanja are primarily used to disambiguate homonyms or to abbreviate, though... everything else is generally written in hangul.

I think thai looks good with the mixed script, though mixing scripts is one of the many things that makes the japanese language so attractive. What do you think?


Eh, it doesn't look so good to me...

I'm really not a fan of logographic scripts -- and therefore mixed scripts using logographs -- from a practical standpoint. I prefer to see kanji as more of a thing of beauty than a thing of utility. So, even if Japanese is the only mixed script in the world, I think the world has enough of them. ;) But the one we've got is beautiful, nonetheless.

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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby ニッキー » Wed 04.29.2009 2:11 am

kentaku_sama wrote:I don't know why they quit using it but I think alot of languages could use the mixed script:
For one is thai, which I cannot speak/read/ or write but can edit copy, edit paste from wiki to edit.

Here's thai with some random kanji symbols inserted all over the place just to see if it would look ok:

বিষ্ণুপ্রিয়া মণিপুরী 異 এহান環 ভারতর 項菜 অসম, 寝坊邪以、ত্রিপুরা, 弁蛇線 বারো 穂 故事, 碁簿মাদউ মায়া 殻韓 মা二語歯祖 বা 字উ আরাকউ 愛愛間痲 個度 কতহাত 鋸子 地 康侘 ইন্দো-端雫 ঠার 故事, 項菜 অহমীয়া, 譜 螺旋歩阿賀 血値 新徒臣 বিষ্ণুপ্রিয়া 歯駕我 ঠার এহান 野 みあ 観 以多雨身 বারো 間মণিপুর 家 হমবুকে 寄屡 চারিয়বারেদে 埜異 毛 অতাত হঙসেহান 異 মুঙবারেসেহান। ঠা我納 拿猫 বারাদে 手知 প火嘉 異 禰貫 পুরানা 婦誤 উৎসহান ১祖 শতাব্দীত 殻韓 প火嘉 নবখেন্দ্র শর্ম্মার "খু値碁 長" বুলতারা 綯鵜 এহাত 異 আরতা 螺旋歩阿賀 項菜 পেয়ারতা মেজর||||

I think thai looks good with the mixed script, though mixing scripts is one of the many things that makes the japanese language so attractive. What do you think?


Thai...? That's Bengali.

It's not that I don't like mixed scripts (I'm rather fond of them), but I don't think Japanese and Bengali work together. The style, size, shape and way they work is completely different.
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 04.29.2009 9:13 am

We don't want to encourage more languages to use Chinese characters in the representation of their language; luckily there doesn't seem to be any fear that this will happen.
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby JaySee » Wed 04.29.2009 10:17 am

furrykef wrote:
kentaku_sama wrote:korean used to use chinese characters called hanja but eventually they went to using nothing but korean.


Korean still uses hanja. It just doesn't use them nearly as much as it used to. The North Korean government doesn't use them at all in its publications, but the North Korean public still does, and South Korea still uses hanja as well. Hanja are primarily used to disambiguate homonyms or to abbreviate, though... everything else is generally written in hangul.


They do still use kanji in South Korea, but only very rarely; you'll be hard-pressed to find more than 2 in any given newspaper article. Most Koreans under 30-40 years old - even the more well-educated people - really only know the most basic ones well, even though characters are still taught in schools. I even came across a few people who weren't able to write their own name in kanji, although I think that this is still quite uncommon. An interesting difference in kanji usage between Japanese and Korean is that in Korea they were never used to spell words that were not of Chinese origin, and as such kun-yomi don't exist. Most of them also only have one on-yomi, so technically it should be easier to get the hang of characters in Korean than in Japanese.
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby yukamina » Wed 04.29.2009 12:05 pm

Korean with hanja mixed in gives me a headache just looking at it @_@ I find Chinese without enough space between the characters difficult too.

Thankfully, Japanese kana are spacey, so it looks good in mixed texts.
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby furrykef » Wed 04.29.2009 12:55 pm

yukamina wrote:Korean with hanja mixed in gives me a headache just looking at it @_@ I find Chinese without enough space between the characters difficult too.


Heh, yeah, it's kind of funny... before you learn an Asian language, they all look alike. I seriously didn't know the difference between the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean writing systems. Of course Korean's very easy to identify very quickly, because it has all those circles. Then Chinese and Japanese are easy to tell apart even before you read a word of it because... Chinese is so freakin' dense! I dunno why I'd never noticed that Japanese looks sparse by comparison.

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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby snovymgodom » Fri 06.12.2009 2:22 pm

I've studied Kazakh and I'm interested in Turkic languages, which many people say bear similarities to Japanese. Some people will even go as far as to put them in a hypothetical branch called Altaic, which would encompass Turkic languages, Mongolian, and possibly Japanese, Korean and the Finno-Ugric languages.

Currently all of the Turkic languages use either the Latin or Cyrillic alphabet or the Arabic script. I was thinking that a logographic script would suit Turkic languages because certain morphemes show up all the time and are often pronounced identically (or very similarly). Like -lar, -ler, -dar-, der-, tar-, ter are all forms of the plural in the Kazakh language, and you know which one to use due to vowel harmony. But it would be interesting if you could instantly recognize it as a plural form by having a single character representing all 6 of those forms. It's just an experimental idea I've had in my head, in practice it would probably end up unfeasible, and the Kazakhs and other Turkic peoples would probably reject the idea anyway (it is controversial enough for Turkic languages using the Cyrillic alphabet to switch over to the Latin alphabet).
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Re: Mixed script languages

Postby Stone_Cold » Tue 06.23.2009 11:58 pm

My head hurts after looking at that mixed mess. :( Language in itself isn't perfect anyways and especially English. I didn't take the time to read what everyone posted, but it seems you're referring to the usage of Han in other languages. The Japanese writing system is based off Chinese Han and many languages have adapted their own version.

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangut_language
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