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Can you believe it?

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Can you believe it?

Postby Mür » Wed 07.01.2009 6:03 pm

I want to comment here what I have just heard on a Spanish TV channel. I'm from Catalonia, but I mean one of the statal channels. I think it's the most stupid thing I have ever heard in the debate programs.
I do not intend to offend Spanish speakers, I just want to write my thoughts about the liberty of expression given to Catalan people by central government. I also don't want this to become a political debate. I'm looking at it in a linguistic and freedom way. In this topic, Europeans might have more to say, perhaps for the EU thing.

I have to explain some political aspects to give context for the ones living more far away from here, and who probably haven't ever heard of this, but I don't want this to go to a political end.

What I have just listened is one of the several stupid comments that some people of Spain make against us, the Catalan. They usually try speaking about this at every time of the day, specially in those rubbish debate programmes where some prejudiced people go and get payed for saying what most Spanish who hate Catalan want to listen.

The people talking in this program consider that the cause of the 46th position in education in Europe of Spain is due to having a zone of the state which speaks another language. In fact, I think Catalonia is one of the Spanish regions with a best quality of education, I do not say there aren't other ones.
They have also used the prejudiced argument that they want to ban Catalan because Spanish is the 2nd or 3rd language spoken in the world. And I say, does a bigger number of speakers mean the language is better, and that ours must be banned? It is only because we don't have our own state. You can't use this argument, because, for example, there are less speakers of Finnish or Norse than Catalan speakers.
It is always the same here against us, and a big number of Spanish people still believe it is this way, and do not bother to get information from a more reliable source. On the other hand, there are Spanish people who respect other speakers, of course.
In some zones between France and Germany I think it happens more or less the same, because we were told that by an exchange student from that region in a speech prectice in English class.

I think people all over the world like Spain for the sun and beaches, but I am sure that the central government makes efforts to prevent this information going out to the rest of the world. I just wanted to talk about one of my biggest concerns, which is an injustice, a banning of freedom, and an attempt of annihilating our culture, as well.
Do you think it is fair?
Last edited by Mür on Thu 07.02.2009 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 07.01.2009 9:26 pm

Please read the rules for the board; political discussions are not allowed even in the off-topic section.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Infidel » Wed 07.01.2009 10:05 pm

The topic of language loss through legislation could work though if it were seriously reworded and made more academic and less emotional.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Disco » Thu 07.02.2009 1:51 am

残念です。人々は人間が嫌いですけどReasonを持っていないんです。
Mür. While as I don't know the whole situation, and as YudanTaiteki さん said political discussions are not allowed (even in off topic ), I do have to agree with you that it is not fair. I'm guessing that Espana is the USA of the spanish speaking world.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Mür » Thu 07.02.2009 4:14 am

I said I don't want to talk about it as a political discussion. I read the rules before posting, that's why I remarked in my text that it doesn't become a political discussion. I explained something about politics for context, but I want to focus in the language.
This can also be applied to other languages, as well, not only mine, which has a political situation. I am against what happens here, but I am also against when people of other minoritary languages get conviced of not using their own language because other speakers of another language more used thell them the majoritary is better, and that they should stop using the minoritary, for example in Africa.

I repeat, I only want to look at it in a linguistic way. I think this can't be done less emotional because this was their comment, and the real situation, if other users talk about other examples, or only say it is really an injustice, this won't go on a political way.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby phreadom » Thu 07.02.2009 10:07 am

I worked on a Native American reservation here in my state for a few years, and it was very interesting to talk with speakers of the native language. I even attended a language camp where many fluent speakers and learners were conversing in the language.

It was interesting to learn the history of the language and how many had been forced not to speak it when they were young etc... (in favor of English)
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby astaroth » Thu 07.02.2009 10:50 am

I'm kind of with you, Mür, on this as Italy was the same with the loss of the native languages of Italy (what Italians call 'dialects' though they are not dialects of Italian but rather independent languages with distinct grammar and vocabulary, pretty much like Catalan is with respect to Spanish) in favor of (standard) Italian.
I said 'I'm kind of with you' because at a certain point the loss of regional languages in favor of a national language is something that makes sense as it speeds communications and relations between regions of one country.
So I don't know ... after all in US who would vote for a president who doesn't speak English? Just to make a rather drastic analogy (though I think not so unrealistic ...)
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.02.2009 11:02 am

phreadom wrote:I worked on a Native American reservation here in my state for a few years, and it was very interesting to talk with speakers of the native language. I even attended a language camp where many fluent speakers and learners were conversing in the language.

It was interesting to learn the history of the language and how many had been forced not to speak it when they were young etc... (in favor of English)


There are a few reasons why that was enforced.. (most of them political in nature, so it's a thin edge if I wanted to discuss some of them).. One of the major reasons was that a few generations of Indians (Native Americans) spoke nothing but their own tongue and they couldn't help themselves when it came to policy or other National decisions. they set out to require their children to be able to converse with and be able to utlize the National laws to further their causes.. Unfortunately, that generation of English speakers was not allowed to learn their Native tongue and over the years, the generations are slowly relearning. (This is typical of the Navajo, and the Cheyenne)

And sometimes, it's just the parents that don't want their child to grow up as the kid that can't speak English. (or whatever language is being discussed...) First generation imigrants do this as they themselves have a hard time integrating due to lack of language skill. Their children become their translators. I remember visiting a Korean friend and while at their house, the mother and father never once spoke a word of English to me. It was 100% Korean in that house.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Mür » Thu 07.02.2009 1:12 pm

According to what you said, two_heads_talking, I have also seen translator children for example in the loads of Chinese shops that are being set here in Catalonia, but they can speak Chinese, and now learn a new language, so they have the benefit they now know two of them, and that makes culture. In Catalonia we have the same advantage, we have two languages. But the difference is, (and I know it is not exactly the same), if an Italian emigrated to America and said, well, I don't want to speak English because I live with all the italians in an only Italian speaker comunity, or district, or anywhere it is, the Americans should learn Italian to speak with me if they wanted, and this is what a lot of Spanish do here. This is not "integration". And for example, next year I'm going to Finland in a study exchange, it is as if I said, I don't want to learn Finnish, they will talk to me in English, or in Spanish if they can. (which is not true because I really want to learn Finnish ^^)

I have also studied North American history and the evolution of it politically and linguistically in a seminar of culture in the degree I am doing, so I know this about the indian migrations and what happened whit their languages, which is stil happening all over the world with the native languages of the regions. Every day, a lot of languages die, because all their speakers die, specially in Guinea Papua, where there are a looot of languages still unknown.

As with Italian there is still pression for example in the Catalan speaking comunities of Sardinia and Sicily (there are two littele regions). There, there may also pressure to make them stop speaking that, as well as the other "dialects" of Italian, but this is also political and I don't want to comment more on it.
This also happens, for example, in Japan with Ainu, in France with Rossilion, and so, but the difference with all these languages you have talked about is that we have devolved powers and autonomy, so law protects our language.
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.02.2009 1:23 pm

Mür wrote:According to what you said, two_heads_talking, I have also seen translator children for example in the loads of Chinese shops that are being set here in Catalonia, but they can speak Chinese, and now learn a new language, so they have the benefit they now know two of them, and that makes culture.


Of course this happens. My point is that each of these conditions can be unique to each person, family, group of people etc. It's easy to generalize and say everyone is doing it, but honestly, it's different based on who you are, where you are, who you know, and where you've been, etc. etc.

In your above example, that's a good thing, if the kids come back.. but, you'll find a few of those kids that want to stay. Some of those who stay, will stop using Chinese altogether, some will try to keep their language and others will use it only when calling home to mom and dad. Some of those that come back will keep their second language, others will let it go to waste and a few might even study it and later on in life, will move their families there. (each case will be different)
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby Mür » Thu 07.02.2009 1:43 pm

Of course it depends on the situation, person, etc. I totally agree with you. I was only posting the most common example here. :)
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 07.02.2009 2:09 pm

Mür wrote:Of course it depends on the situation, person, etc. I totally agree with you. I was only posting the most common example here. :)



Oh, don't get me wrong.. I'm not arguing. I'm just adding to the discussion.. :)
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Re: Can you believe it?

Postby john2 » Fri 10.16.2009 5:14 pm

Well :cry: language loss threw legislation is awful :cry: . actually it makes me cry anyway.
anyway, I’d prefer not to have to many laws involving language[okay some are inevitable in the sense that their are already laws like laws will be writtin in # and in #, or, in # and also in#… for example.– I’ll try not to get any more political than this so i’ll stop their on that thread.
Still maybe their it is that certain ethical thngs should be followed and certain goals should be met by rules not to mention that rules should create no form of ethnocentrism or prejudice. and no active form of intervention or psive form of intevention that causes the destruction of cultural values should be done. well that is agreeable but the problem is what is the spreme court decision on that it’s one thing to put that into a theory,
another into practice it’s hard to give an example where it doesn't turn into outright politics.
actually not possible.
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