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Negative te-form vs. te-form

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Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Wed 07.08.2009 4:40 am

Hi! =)

Is the negative te-form just like the te-form, but negative? Or is there a difference apart from the fact that the nagative form is negative?

Thanks!
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Sairana » Wed 07.08.2009 5:17 am

te-form doesn't have a negative aspect. The negation happens in the final verb (usually 'iru').

Maybe this page will help? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the question...
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby NocturnalOcean » Wed 07.08.2009 5:20 am

I think he means if there is a difference between the usage of te-form like this:

食べる
食べて
食べなくて
失敗は成功の元
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Sairana » Wed 07.08.2009 7:54 am

Ohhh... every time I hear て-form, I automatically go into the whole "continuing state/action" bit. I guess I just perceive the sentence combination functions of て to be separate (as in, not called te-form) for some reason... :oops:
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Wed 07.08.2009 1:37 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:I think he means if there is a difference between the usage of te-form like this:

食べる
食べて
食べなくて

That is exactly how I mean it. =)

I have read that "nakute" is used when talking about reason for something, but are there other uses?
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Wed 07.08.2009 3:40 pm

Svensk wrote:I have read that "nakute" is used when talking about reason for something, but are there other uses?


There are lots of uses.

Anytime you can use the te-form, you can use the nakute-form.

Just as "xxx-te gomen nasai" means "I'm sorry I XXXX," you can also use "xxx-nakute gomen nasai" to mean "I'm sorry I didn't XXXX".

You need to come up with a more specific question :)
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Thu 07.09.2009 6:44 am

keatonatron wrote:
Svensk wrote:I have read that "nakute" is used when talking about reason for something, but are there other uses?


There are lots of uses.

Anytime you can use the te-form, you can use the nakute-form.

Just as "xxx-te gomen nasai" means "I'm sorry I XXXX," you can also use "xxx-nakute gomen nasai" to mean "I'm sorry I didn't XXXX".

You need to come up with a more specific question :)


Ok! I'll mention the way the te-form can be used,and ask if I can use the negative form.

The te-form


1. Used to link similar items in a parallel relationship.

Ex. "Kanojo wa kawaikute genkide hito ni shinsetsu desu".

If I wanted to say that she was NOT pretty (kawaii), but cheerful and kind to people, could I use the te-form and say "kawaikunakute", ord do I have to say "kawaiku nai demo..."?

2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after).

I am pretty much 100 % sure you can not use the the negative te-form here, but I'll ask anyway just to be sure.

Ex. of normal te-form "Gakko ni itte, mise ni itta"
Is it possible to use ikanakute here? "I did not go school, and then (after that time period I could/should have been in school) I went to the store".


3. Used to indicate cause or reason.

I know it is possible to use it here, so no help needed.

4. Used to indicate a means or method.

Ex. "Tetsuya shite, shigoto o sumaseta"
Can I say something like "I did not work all night long, and finished my work"?

5. Used to indicate a contrast or opposition. (and or but)

Ex. "Banana wa kiiro de ringo wa akai"
Could I say "Banana wa kiiro de nakute ringo wa akai"?

6. Used when to actions occur almost simultaneously.

Another one I doubt could be combined with nakute.
Ex. "Kanojo wa sofa ni suwatte hon o yondeiru"
Could I use the negative te-form here?

That was all the exmaples. Thanks for the help, and tell me if I am not clear enough!
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Thu 07.09.2009 4:15 pm

-nakute can work with all of those :)

However, numbers 2, 4, and 6 have a special condition:

There are two types of "negative te" forms when dealing with reasons and consecutive actions: -nakute, and -nai de.

XXX-nakute YYY means "don't XXX, YYY"
XXX-nai de YYY means "without XXXing, YYY"

For example, "mado wo shimenai de nemashita" would mean "I went to sleep without shutting the window."
"Mado wo shimenakute nemashita" would mean "I didn't shut the window, I went to sleep!"

Knowing which one to use generally depends on context. If someone were to ask you why you got sick, the first answer would be appropriate. If you made a deal with your roommate that one of you would shut the window and the other would go to sleep, and then someone asked you which one you did (strange example, I know!), the second answer would be more appropriate.

As for number 1, -nakute is grammatically fine, but it sounds a little strange in this context because kawaikunai doesn't fit with the other words. Even in English, it would be more natural to say "she isn't cute but she is nice to people". So, if you want to list contrasting words I would suggest including "but" (i.e. kanojo ga kawaikunai kedo hito ni shinsetsu desu). If you want to use a negative form which has a similar meaning to the other words, it is fine (i.e. "she is not greedy and is nice to people").
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Fri 07.10.2009 5:28 am

keatonatron wrote:-nakute can work with all of those :)

However, numbers 2, 4, and 6 have a special condition:

Wait, just to be clear, 2,4, and 6 can use nakute, and nai de?

Thank you so much! =)
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Fri 07.10.2009 10:46 am

If it fits the context, yes.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Sat 07.11.2009 7:12 am

keatonatron wrote:If it fits the context, yes.

Ok! Thanks! :D
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One more question about nakute

Postby Svensk » Mon 07.13.2009 1:42 pm

Hi! =)

Earlier in the conversation, I asked about nakute when it used to describe sequences, and it was revealed that you can use nakute when you wish to explain that something did not happend, and that something else happend after that. But now I wonder, how common is it to say "I did not X, and after that I did Z"? It does'nt sound right to say "I did'nt do something, and after that (period of time) I did something else". I also have a problem understanding how you can use nai+te when talking about things that occurs at the same time, with one of the things taking plance under the other, ex. "Sitting on the sofa, she is reading a book"; Standing by the window, keiko is watching outside."

It possible that I have missunderstood something, and if that is the case i apologize.

I can understand how nakute is used in other ways like: "I am not X, and... (linking things in a relationsship'*)"; "I did not...so...(Cause)"; "By not doing, I managed to...(means)";"Adam is not..., and james on the contrary is...(contrast)".

I am grateful for all help, and for your patience.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Mon 07.13.2009 2:17 pm

One thing I intended to explain before is that when you change the te-form to nakute or nai de in one of these sentences (numbers 2,4,6 in your post with all the examples), it changes the meaning--however, it might not change the whole sentence very much.

As I said before, -nakute means "don't [do something]", and -nai de means "without [doing something]".
Even if your original sentence uses the te-form for some other purpose, you can change it to -nakute but the meaning will also change slightly.

Sentence type 1
1. Used to link similar items in a parallel relationship.

Ex. "Kanojo wa kawaikute genkide hito ni shinsetsu desu".


This type is normal, so changing kawaikute to kawaikunakute simply changes the sentence from "she is cute and..." to "she is not cute and..."

However, sentence type 2
2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after).

Ex. of normal te-form "Gakko ni itte, mise ni itta"


Will be changed slightly. "Gakko ni itte, mise ni itta" means "I went to school, then to the store." Changing itte to ikanakute will actually change the meaning of the sentence to "I didn't go to school, and went to the store." However, as you can see, that is not very different from the original sentence!

Sentences of type 4 and 6 are also like this.
4. Used to indicate a means or method.

Ex. "Tetsuya shite, shigoto o sumaseta"


"By working all night, I got my work done" becomes "I didn't work all night and got my work done" (if you use nakute) or "Without working all night, I got my work done" (if you use nai de).

As you can see, the feeling of the sentence changes but the overall meaning won't change very much.

Hope this was easy to understand! :?
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Mon 07.13.2009 2:54 pm

keatonatron wrote:One thing I intended to explain before is that when you change the te-form to nakute or nai de in one of these sentences (numbers 2,4,6 in your post with all the examples), it changes the meaning--however, it might not change the whole sentence very much.

As I said before, -nakute means "don't [do something]", and -nai de means "without [doing something]".
Even if your original sentence uses the te-form for some other purpose, you can change it to -nakute but the meaning will also change slightly.


Let me see if I got everything straight.

1."nakute" always implies cause, apart from sentence 1,5 and 6?
2. If I transform the ordinary te-form, when it is used to explain sequence, to nai+te, it stops explaining sequence? I.e. "Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta" does'nt necessarily mean that the subject of the sentence went to the store after the period of time he/she was supposed to go to school, but it can also mean the subject went to the store during schooltime?

What happends if I use "-nakute" in sentence 6, "when to actions occur almost simultaneously"? What will be the "feeling" of the sentence?

I thank you deeply for your help!
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Mon 07.13.2009 4:42 pm

I'll answer question 2 first:
2. If I transform the ordinary te-form, when it is used to explain sequence, to nai+te, it stops explaining sequence? I.e. "Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta" does'nt necessarily mean that the subject of the sentence went to the store after the period of time he/she was supposed to go to school, but it can also mean the subject went to the store during schooltime?


Yes. The order of events becomes irrelevant. All we know is that the subject did go to the store and didn't go to school.

This next question is confusing...
Svensk wrote:1."nakute" always implies cause, apart from sentence 1,5 and 6?


Showing cause is simply one of the uses of the te-form (and nakute).

For example,
Shiai wo katte ureshikatta. (I was happy because we won the game)
Shiai wo katanakute sabishikatta. (I was sad because we didn't win the game)

When you use nakute with items 2, 4, and 6, it simply means that something didn't happen (no matter the original meaning):

Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta = I didn't go to school, (and) I went to the store.
Tetsuya shinakute, shigoto o sumaseta = I didn't work all night, (and) finished my work.
Kanojo wa sofa ni suwaranakute hon o yondeiru = She didn't sit on the sofa, (and) she read a book.
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