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Negative te-form vs. te-form

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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Mon 07.13.2009 5:36 pm

keatonatron wrote:Yes. The order of events becomes irrelevant. All we know is that the subject did go to the store and didn't go to school.


Ok! :) I thought that was the case.

keatonatron wrote:This next question is confusing...


My question is this; if I use the negative te-form in the sentences 2,3, and 4, do I automatically imply cause? I have read alot of internet pages telling me that the main purpose of nakute is expressing reason/cause. Let me give you examples;

"2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after)."
If I say; "Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta", do I imply that my visit to the store was the/a reason I did not go to school?

"3. Used to indicate cause or reason."
I understand that you use nakute to express reason/cause here.

4. "Used to indicate a means or method."
Ok, while writing this explaination, I get the feeling I am asking a stupid question when I ask this, but I'll ask anyway; If I use "nakute" when I indicate means/method do I in anyway imply reason?

I understand that I do not imply cause when using sentence 1, 5, and 6 (or am I wrong?).

Thank you so much! :D I hope I am not pushing you patience to the limit with my questions. I understand if you do not want to answer them. :| Tell me if I am not clear about something!^_^

By the way, I am going to bed now (almost midnight swedish time), so do not sit up all day long waiting for my reply to your reply!
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby NocturnalOcean » Mon 07.13.2009 6:16 pm

To be honest, I don't think I have ever seen なくて as in

""2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after)."
"Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta""

I feel, that this incorrect in Japanese. It sounds weird in any language to me. "I didn't go to school, and went to the store."
Since these are two contrasts, they should be connected with "but" instead of "and". Same in Japanese I feel.
"I didn't go to school, but I went to the store."

Or another view of it, "I went to the store without going to school". "Gakkou ni ikanaide, mise ni itta".

When I hear なくて I also hear the reason/cause, which you yourself have mentioned.

And it is often used with negative potential.

Some examples taken from A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar.

日本では日本語が話せなくて残念でした。 It's regrettable that I couldn't speak Japanese in Japan.

試験は難しくなくてよかったですね。 The exam wasn't difficult and it was good, wasn't it?

字が上手じゃなくて恥ずかしいんです。 My handwriting is so poor that I feel ashamed.
Last edited by NocturnalOcean on Mon 07.13.2009 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 07.13.2009 6:38 pm

You can have なくて sequences that do not indicate cause or reason, for instance:

あれは日本語じゃなくて中国語だ。

Whether or not the first predicate indicates a cause is context dependent.

But I was not able to find any examples on google of a similar construction using an action verbal like 行く.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby NocturnalOcean » Mon 07.13.2009 6:41 pm

Yeah, I am aware of those. What I meant to express in my post was that I don't know of any uses of なくて with temporal usages such as was posted in the above example. I tried looking for it in google as well, but can't seem to find any.
It doesn't surprise me though, cause the logic in the construction itself is weird in my opinion.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Tue 07.14.2009 12:53 am

Svensk wrote:My question is this; if I use the negative te-form in the sentences 2,3, and 4, do I automatically imply cause?


I think I've already explained that it doesn't :)

If you use it like the following,

Shiai wo katte ureshikatta. (I was happy because we won the game)
Shiai wo katanakute sabishikatta. (I was sad because we didn't win the game)


it shows cause/reason.

Using -nakute in your examples 2, 4, and 6 do not change the meaning to show cause.




Nocturnal wrote:To be honest, I don't think I have ever seen なくて as in

""2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after)."
"Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta""


You are right that the only way to show temporal sequence with the negative is to use nai de.

I'm not sure if you meant you've never seen a sentence like this that also shows sequence, but the sentence itself (with no context) is perfectly fine.

How about:
Q:さっき家を出るのを聞こえたよ。学校に行ってきた?
A:いや、学校に行かなくてお店に行ってきた。

I guess I didn't quite stress the main message I was trying to get across. -nakute can be used in any of these sentences, but the meaning will change. Sometimes the change in meaning is not a big deal (e.g. number 4) and sometimes the original meaning can only be preserved with nai de (e.g. number 2). However, grammatically, any of these sentences (unless previously specified) can include -nakute and still be valid sentences.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Tue 07.14.2009 7:05 am

keatonatron wrote:Q:さっき家を出るのを聞こえたよ。学校に行ってきた?
A:いや、学校に行かなくてお店に行ってきた。


I actually came up with almost this exact example when I was writing the other post, but before I posted it I tried to search google and I could not find anything like this (I tried various search phrases including 日本に行かなくて中国, アメリカに行かなくて日本, etc and nothing came up).
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Tue 07.14.2009 7:36 am

今、学校に行かなくて、仕事にも就いたことがなくて、「親」とか「行政」に保護されて生きている人は、飯島愛さんが「じぶんの人生のモデル」になると考えてもいいでしょう。


もうしばらくは学校に行かなくてすむぞー!


I think it's very difficult to google something as specific as this. Of course -ても, -ては, -ていい, and -ないで will vastly outnumber other sentence types.

The examples I found do follow the "without" meaning more than the "don't" meaning, but I don't know how different the two are in these types of contexts (i.e. where order is not important).

What about something like "そうじゃなくて、[こうだよ]", which is a very common phrase in conversation?
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby NocturnalOcean » Tue 07.14.2009 7:41 am

That's perfectly fine.
The problem with じゃなくて is when it is Verb + Verb. Such as 学校に行かなくて、店に行った。
I can't say why, but it just sounds off to me.

Edit:

To solve your example:

How about:
Q:さっき家を出るのを聞こえたよ。学校に行ってきた?
A:いや、学校に行かなくてお店に行ってきた

I think you either need to say something like A: いや、学校じゃなくて、店に行ったよ。
Or maybe A: ちがう、店に行ったよ。
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Tue 07.14.2009 4:08 pm

When you use nakute with items 2, 4, and 6, it simply means that something didn't happen (no matter the original meaning):


Wait, so if the te-form of Tetsuya shite, shigoto o sumaseta is modified using the negative te-form, it loses its explaination of means/method? I.e. "Tetsuya shinakute, shigoto o sumaseta " does'nt mean "By not working all night, I finished the work", but it means "I did not work all night, and I finished the work(coincidence)"?

So let us see if I got it all straight.

1. Used to link similar items in a parallel relationship.

Te-form; "Kanojo wa kawaikute genkide hito ni shinsetsu desu".
Meaning; "She is pretty, cheerful and kind to people".
Nakute; "Kanojo wa kawaikunakute genkide hito ni shinsetsu desu".
Meaning; "She is not pretty and she is cheerful and kind to people" (But it does not sound natural, so you should use something with "demo" instead.)

2. Used to indicate a temporal sequence (since, after).

Te-form; "Gakko ni itte, mise ni itta".
Meaning; "[Subject] went to school. and after that to the store".
Nakute; "Gakko ni ikanakute, mise ni itta"
Meaning; "[Subject] did not go to school, [subject] went to the store." (here the sequence of action is not mentioned. The trip to the store could have taken place before, during, or after schooltime.)

3. Used to indicate cause or reason.
_________________




4.

Te-form; "Tetsuya shite, shigoto o sumaseta"
Meaning; [Subject] worked all night, and [because of that] [Subject] finished the work.

Because of things that have been said earlier, I am confused about the negative form.





5. Used to indicate a contrast or opposition. (and or but)

Te-form; "Banana wa kiiro de ringo wa akai".
Meaning; "Bananas are yellow, but (on the other hand) apples are red."
Nakute; "Banana wa kiiro dewa nakute ringo wa akai"
Meaning; Bananas are not yellow, and apples are red. (sounds weird, I know. I should probaly say something like "Banana wa kiiro dewa nai. Soshite...", right?).

6. Used when to actions occur almost simultaneously.


Te-form
;"Kanojo wa sofa ni suwatte hon o yondeiru"
Meaning; "Sitting on the sofa, she is reading a book."
Nakute; "Kanojo wa sofa ni suwaranakute hon o yondeiru."
Meaning; "She is not sitting on the sofa, and she is reading a book."

I am grateful for all help and patience. :) Excuse me if I missed something, but I almost got a heart attack because of the reply section of this page. :wink:
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Re: Negative te-form (ないで vs なくて)  

Postby coco » Tue 07.14.2009 4:51 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:That's perfectly fine.
The problem with じゃなくて is when it is Verb + Verb. Such as 学校に行かなくて、店に行った。
I can't say why, but it just sounds off to me.

I think you either need to say something like A: いや、学校じゃなくて、店に行ったよ。
Or maybe A: ちがう、店に行ったよ。

私も、この場合は最初の動詞を省きます。
「行った」という行為をを否定しているのではなく、行った場所を否定しているので
NocturnalOceanさんがおっしゃる形を使います。
「いや、学校じゃなくて、あの店に行ったんだよ」

妹 : なんか玄関の方で音がしたね。おにいちゃんが帰ってきたのかな?
母 : 帰ってきたんじゃなくて、出かけたのよ。

この場合は、動詞が違うので、「動詞+の+では+なくて」が使われると思います。
行為(動詞)ではなく人物を否定する場合は

母: おにいちゃんじゃなくて、お父さんが帰ってきたのよ。

"I went to the store without going to school".

この場合は「学校に行かずにあの店に行った」と表現する方が一般的だと思います。

keatonatron wrote:Tetsuya shinakute, shigoto o sumaseta = I didn't work all night, (and) finished my work.
Kanojo wa sofa ni suwaranakute hon o yondeiru = She didn't sit on the sofa, (and) she read a book.

これは
・ [徹夜せずに/徹夜しないで]仕事を終わらせ(ることができ)た。
・ 彼女はソファにすわらずに本を読んでいる。
あたりだと思います。 このときに「なくて」を使うことはあまりないと思います。

Nakute v.s Naide
〇 試験の前日、彼は寝ないで勉強した。
〇 試験の前日、彼は寝ずに勉強した。
×  試験の前日、彼は寝なくて勉強した。

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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Wed 07.15.2009 6:45 am

Svensk wrote:Wait, so if the te-form of Tetsuya shite, shigoto o sumaseta is modified using the negative te-form, it loses its explaination of means/method? I.e. "Tetsuya shinakute, shigoto o sumaseta " does'nt mean "By not working all night, I finished the work", but it means "I did not work all night, and I finished the work(coincidence)"?



How could not working possibly be the reason for the work getting done?? :wink:

A much simpler way to say that (if it were even possible) would be something like:

Tetsuya wo shinakatta node shigoto wo sumaseta.

You could also link the two sentences with kara, noni, kedo, etc.

I think you should maybe take a break from all this -nakute nonsense :) It's quite advanced, so you should come back to it when you start coming across it in Japanese texts/conversations. As you can see, we all have a hard time explaining it.

It's much easier to bring us real-world examples and have us explain what they mean and why instead of bringing up hypothetical examples and asking us if it's possible for them to exist.

There's nothing wrong with your questions, I just think you are trying too hard! :wink:



NocturnalOcean wrote:That's perfectly fine.
The problem with じゃなくて is when it is Verb + Verb. Such as 学校に行かなくて、店に行った。
I can't say why, but it just sounds off to me.


Last night in my sleep I realized that the problem is probably because the two verbs are the same. Would you feel more comfortable with something like "公園まで歩かなくて、車に乗っていった"?

But it looks like Coco already pointed that out. :oops:
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Svensk » Wed 07.15.2009 8:42 am

keatonatron wrote:

How could not working possibly be the reason for the work getting done?? :wink:

That is beside the point!^_^ The point is the grammar. By not working all night, the subject could rest and gained the energy to finish the work the next morning.^_^

keatonatron wrote:I think you should maybe take a break from all this -nakute nonsense It's quite advanced, so you should come back to it when you start coming across it in Japanese texts/conversations. As you can see, we all have a hard time explaining it.


Yeah, maybe, but I am one of those people who really want to learn much about something before moving on. :/

Well, if nobody has something to add I guess I have to stay ignorant about nakute a little bit more. :/
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby Gundaetiapo » Wed 07.15.2009 9:26 am

coco san's explanation was very helpful for me.

Welcome to the forums, Svensk! I would recommend getting IME set up soon.
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Re: Negative te-form vs. te-form

Postby keatonatron » Wed 07.15.2009 10:31 am

Svensk wrote:Well, if nobody has something to add I guess I have to stay ignorant about nakute a little bit more. :/


keatonatron wrote:A much simpler way to say that ... would be something like:

Tetsuya wo shinakatta node shigoto wo sumaseta.

You could also link the two sentences with kara, noni, kedo, etc.


Changing it to nakute loses the cause and effect meaning.
The only way to keep that meaning is to change the sentence as I mentioned above.
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