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AKA Geek talk - discuss technology in general; this may or may not relate to Japanese

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Postby Stone_Cold » Sat 07.18.2009 4:42 pm

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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby Sairana » Sat 07.18.2009 7:54 pm

You make a lot of broad generalizations and baseless accusations that border on inflammatory, rather than inviting discussion. But I'll attempt to draw you into a more rounded approach to your argument:

Stone_Cold wrote:It’s found in/on practically everything; especially on/in electronics.


In what way? Electronics sold in other countries have instruction manuals in their native language, and most things like "play" buttons are just marked with symbols now instead of words. Menus are localized to languages of the regions a product is released in. This in mind, of course everything released in an English speaking country is going to be in English. Do you have examples of products for another country that do not provide native-language materials to the consumers?

It’s highly inappropriate and downright wrong to force English/Latin* on everyone.


Agreed. But who is forcing what on "everyone", and in what way? Is there some guy or committee somewhere that I never heard of that decided everyone has to learn English? If so, what is the source of their power, and what influence do they have over the world to force everyone to conform to the English language?

Dose anyone else get annoyed with this?


What's there to be annoyed with?
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby keatonatron » Sun 07.19.2009 12:55 am

In my recent travels to Europe I've found that you can use English ANYWHERE. Even when I went to the smallest town in the middle of remote Croatia, everyone spoke great English.

I found it very convenient. And it makes sense. If a Spaniard wants to visit Germany, they could learn German... which would only be useful in that one country. If they later wanted to visit Poland, they'd have to study Polish too.

But if they just learn English, they can use it in either of those countries. The same with Germans who want to visit Italy, French who want to visit Hungary, and Turks who want to visit Portugal. If everyone can use English, everyone can go everywhere and communicate just fine.

You may be wondering why English? French is a very common language, why doesn't everyone use that?

Well, it's much more than the English empire having been very strong at one point. English is a mixture of German, French, Latin (which gave birth to Spanish and Italian), and many other languages, which makes it easy(-ier) for native speakers of those languages to learn it.

It's kind of like how Chinese people already know kanji and on-yomi so they can learn Japanese fast, and Korean people use the exact same grammar as Japanese, so they too can learn it fast. They can't learn each other's languages very fast, though.

As for electronics and stuff... When such a huge percentage of the world's cultures are learning English simply because it's easy to learn (and therefore common), why not use it to label all of your goods that might become exports?

It's much better than trying to fit 6 languages onto one tiny circuit board :D
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Postby Stone_Cold » Sun 07.19.2009 7:37 am

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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 07.19.2009 9:45 am

I remember some Japanese people I knew complaining that electronics in Japan often had English on them instead of Japanese.
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby NocturnalOcean » Sun 07.19.2009 10:07 am

Stone_Cold wrote:Forget this Thread. :shock: I was having a stupid ### moment. I'm scratching my head wondering why the #### I made this ### thread. :oops: Ahhh... just another reason to show I'm/we're not perfect. lol :mrgreen: :oops:


Still, just leave the original post as it is. No matter how stupid or genius the post is, it might still create some interesting discussions.
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby astaroth » Sun 07.19.2009 10:25 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:I remember some Japanese people I knew complaining that electronics in Japan often had English on them instead of Japanese.

Really? That's weird. Though I remember my father complaining that the IT people at his former company install every single piece of software in English. Needless to say my father doesn't speak English, only French (as a second language) ...
keatonatron wrote:Well, it's much more than the English empire having been very strong at one point. English is a mixture of German, French, Latin (which gave birth to Spanish and Italian), and many other languages, which makes it easy(-ier) for native speakers of those languages to learn it.

I am not quite sure it has to do with that, but more with balance of powers in the world.
Till thirty or so years ago, in Italy French was taught as a second language, not English, because French was historically the language used in international relations. Before French it was Latin and before that it was Greek (I guess though, I'm not quite sure of this).
The second language taught in school almost always follow the greatest power, after all during the Cold War in the East Europeans country children were learning Russian (by the way in Russia they were learning either German or French).
keatonatron wrote:In my recent travels to Europe I've found that you can use English ANYWHERE. Even when I went to the smallest town in the middle of remote Croatia, everyone spoke great English.
I found it very convenient.

Though when visiting Europe (or any place for that matter), please try always to make an effort of learning simple words like "Good morning" "Good evening" "Thanks" "You're welcome" and so on. It does make a huge difference, and people always appreciate the effort.
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Postby Stone_Cold » Sun 07.19.2009 11:24 am

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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby keatonatron » Sun 07.19.2009 1:33 pm

Stone_Cold wrote:
It's much better than trying to fit 6 languages onto one tiny circuit board :D


Six languages? What the #### are you talking about? :mrgreen: The hardware and software should be adjusted for the particular area it's being sold....Why would you put six languages on a circuit board when the six are rarely (if ever) used.


Not sure if you were aware, but the motherboards (and other computer internals) in Japan are the exact same products we use in the US. So are DVD players, stereos, and TVs. The only difference is the label put on them at the manufacturing plant. Are you asking the manufacturers to make 10 factories in place of one just so they can make language-specifc copies of all their products? (can you imagine how much that would cost??)

And if you're talking about software; did you ever think that maybe the software was created by someone who only speaks English?

...Chinese people already know kanji...


Um, you mean Chinese Han?


I mean Japanese kanji. At my language school, the Taiwanese and mainland Chinese students could give the on-yomi of just about every character already without studying it first.

I said "kanji" because I wasn't talking about the 10,000+ characters that are used in Mandarin, I was talking about the 2,000 (simplified and easily readable to Chinese people) characters used in Japanese (i.e. "kanji").

...learning English simply because it's easy to learn...


That's 100% not true. :P
FACT: English IS one of the hardest languages to learn.


Yes, it is one of the hardest to learn... if you start from scratch. It is so similar in grammar and vocabulary to Spanish, for example, that Spanish speakers should find it quite easy to learn enough to have simple conversations (I didn't say become fluent, I just said learn!).


Why do you regret this thread?


Can't you see for yourself? :lol:
Trainwrecks like these are often regrettable. :wink:
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby JaySee » Sun 07.19.2009 1:44 pm

Stone_Cold wrote:
who is forcing what on "everyone"


When 4/5ths of every electronic sold has English somewhere on/in it and you have no other option, but to use the software with some English on/in it... If you knew no English and had to use electronics with English on/in them... That somewhat sounds like it's being forced on people.


I happen to live in a country where they speak a small language no one really cares about, and I can tell you that even here almost all electronics do in fact come with Dutch manuals and software (if applicable). Have you ever been to a non-English speaking country? Because judging from what you're saying in this thread, it seems like you haven't.

Stone_Cold wrote:
...learning English simply because it's easy to learn...


That's 100% not true. :P
FACT: English IS one of the hardest languages to learn.


I hate it when people say this. I know everyone wants their language to be the most difficult in the world, but you are very much misinformed. It all depends on your native language, and how close it is to the language you're trying to learn. What makes English easier to learn for foreigners, is the fact that it is the most accesible language in terms of exposure, through music, internet, movies, tv etc. (on a side note, it's nice to see you backing up your "facts" with evidence :roll: ).
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby Gundaetiapo » Sun 07.19.2009 1:56 pm

What kind of untranslated text are we talking about? I'm not familiar with what goes untranslated overseas, including text on electronics. It would be preferable to keep the OP intact.
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby kurisuto » Sun 07.19.2009 4:09 pm

JaySee wrote:
Stone_Cold wrote:
That's 100% not true. :P
FACT: English IS one of the hardest languages to learn.


...it's nice to see you backing up your "facts" with evidence :roll: ...


FACT : I am RIGHT.

Q.E.D

Stone_Cold wrote:China uses Photonics, but Japan uses Photonics w/ Hiragana, Katakana, Romaji, and etc...


Sure : they're photonics maniacs.

Stone_Cold wrote:Um, you mean Chinese Han?


Um, you mean Hanzi?

Stone_Cold wrote:English has several combinations of words that represent meanings/things etc...


You bet. But for my personal enrichment, could you tell me what "several" amounts to ? Definitely sounds impressive !

Stone_Cold wrote:Rest assured I can give much larger and more detailed answers


As in "with several words representing meanings" ?


P.S : Keep being patronizing, we love it ! It really makes us want to discuss with you. :)
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Re: English & Latin Alphabet

Postby Sairana » Mon 07.20.2009 2:44 am

Stone_Cold wrote:Why the #### would I use a ###### manual to learn how to my ###### computer when the ### computer could be in my native language to start with. Who the #### uses a manual to start with.


See, this is the kind of argument that makes you seem like a troll --- and I'm the caveman?
1) I was speaking of electronics in general, thus I mention manuals for things like DVD players, video game consoles, kitchen appliances, and similar electronic devices, including computers. Someone who wants to know how to get into the food trap in the bottom of their dishwasher is going to look at the manual. No one really uses manuals to -learn- how to use what they bought. They use it for reference when they need to.
2) The line "when the computer could be in my native language to start with" suggests that computer operating systems are not available in foreign languages. So far as I am aware, developers make every attempt to localize software, especially OS's, for their market. Have you discovered this is not true? This is relevant information that would validate your rants to some degree.

Stone_Cold wrote:When 4/5ths of every electronic sold has English somewhere on/in it and you have no other option, but to use the software with some English on/in it...

This statement needs clarification. To what degree are we nitpicking the existence of English on an item? If a motherboard has the name of the manufacturer, and some electronics specs printed on it, does it figure into this "4/5"?

If you knew no English and had to use electronics with English on/in them... That somewhat sounds like it's being forced on people.


You're taking business and economic issues and turning them into language-based ones. English (not just American, but British, Australian, Canadian... many industrialized countries are primarily English-speaking) production currently dominates the global economic landscape.

If there is a country where no one else is selling say... DVD players, and a US manufacturer is willing to sell to them.... is that forcing English on that country? Would it be more diplomatic and/or less arrogant to say, "Sorry, we won't sell to you because we don't have a production line running in your native language."? Or are we obligated to translate into every language in the world?

If we are obligated, then take a real world example that ISN'T based in English: the DSi. Presume for the moment that Nintendo didn't release this new handheld to the English-speaking market. For the sake of argument, say they could only reasonably expect MAYBE a couple hundred thousand sales from an English language version. I have NO OTHER OPTION, if I want to use a DSi, except to get one that has only Japanese on it. Did the Japanese just FORCE me to learn their language with the release of that product? Do I have some right to tell Nintendo that they are obligated to make one for me and other English speakers? If they refuse, are they arrogant and elitist Japanese-speakers who think my language isn't worth their time?

English-speaking countries create a lot of things, that a lot of other countries want. Not every language will get equal treatment. The only option in some cases is sell it in the manufacturer's native language, or refuse to sell it to them at all. Would you prefer the latter? If so, wouldn't that be perceived as elitist by many people who would prefer to at least have the option of buying it locally? There'd probably some alternate-dimension version of Stone_Cold coming to the forum to lament the greedy, selfish nature of English-speakers who won't share their technology with small population countries.

For fun, answer who forced the following decisions:
* The six countries of the European Free Trade Association communicate in English. And none of them are English-speaking countries.
* In 1977, four companies from France, Italy, Germany, and Switzerland started Iveco (a truck-making company). They chose English as Iveco's official language.
* When the Swiss company Brown Boveri and the Swedish company ASEA merged in 1988, they decided to use English in the new company.
* When Volkswagen opened a factory in Shanghai it found that there were too few Germans who spoke Chinese, and too few Chinese who spoke German. So now German engineers and Chinese managers communicate in English.

I still don't see any reason to be annoyed with it. It could just as easily have happened with another language. People always tend to either find or create (Esperanto, Lojban) a common ground.... and there'd always be someone sitting around griping "I don't see why everyone should have to learn RUSSIAN.... mumble mumble".
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Postby Stone_Cold » Mon 07.20.2009 6:17 am

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Re: Threads Actual Intention

Postby hyperconjugated » Mon 07.20.2009 7:35 am

Stone_Cold wrote:I love starting a riot. :lol: :wink: It amazes me how quickly individuals are to correct another individual. This thread turned out more interesting than originally intended. :mrgreen: Aggression will on occasion flare heavy debating and it'll usually attract more individuals into the conversation. 8) Humans seem attracted to human aggression :shock: , like pigs are to food. :lol: Especially, in the movies/shows/news we watch; humans seem to thrive off this elixir and want more. Indeed, I'm not suggesting this thread indeed showed signs of aggression :P , but seems in a sense--a belligerence of one's melancholy inner self. :) I feel there's somewhat no need for clarification in this particular post or the need for excessive details. :P :lol:

You not being able to respond to other people's arguments sensibly and then throwing "#######"s here and there doesn't constitute to a riot on any level. Nor there has been any belligerence except maybe from your side. Lots of correction, yes, but it's kind of is kind of hard to follow since you've erased your own posts. Too bad nobody quoted the OP entirely...
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