A few questions
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
A few questions
I finished going through the chapter 3 exercises the other day, but I had to skip a few things because I didn't quite understand.
It seems the verb する is more flexible than I would have thought. For example, I wouldn't have expected スポーツをします to mean "I play sports." Anyway, at one point (I-E for those who have the book) there is a table where the first column is a list of verbs and then each verb has a row of "items," as the book says, that you have to ask about using said verb.
The last row has the following:
~をします | date | study | telephone | tennis
I'm not really sure how to use the verb with most of these. I could make the following questions:
デートをしませんか。
でんわをしませんか。
テニスをしませんか。
The last one makes sense to me. The others don't. As for study, I know the verb 勉強する, but I don't know a noun that I could use to create a question similar to the ones above.
Ok, that's my first inquiry. The other two are shorter. First:
朝、何をしますか。
I can understand what the question is asking, but why separate 朝 with a comma instead of making it the topic of the sentence using -は?
Finally, I looked ahead to chapter 5 today and saw that 聞く means "to ask," as well meaning "to listen," which I learned in chapter 3.
I just want to clarify a couple things. Am I correct about the following meanings:
音楽を聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to music. (I don't really have doubts about this one)
あなたを聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to you.
あなたにききました。 ⇒ I asked you.
Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance!
It seems the verb する is more flexible than I would have thought. For example, I wouldn't have expected スポーツをします to mean "I play sports." Anyway, at one point (I-E for those who have the book) there is a table where the first column is a list of verbs and then each verb has a row of "items," as the book says, that you have to ask about using said verb.
The last row has the following:
~をします | date | study | telephone | tennis
I'm not really sure how to use the verb with most of these. I could make the following questions:
デートをしませんか。
でんわをしませんか。
テニスをしませんか。
The last one makes sense to me. The others don't. As for study, I know the verb 勉強する, but I don't know a noun that I could use to create a question similar to the ones above.
Ok, that's my first inquiry. The other two are shorter. First:
朝、何をしますか。
I can understand what the question is asking, but why separate 朝 with a comma instead of making it the topic of the sentence using -は?
Finally, I looked ahead to chapter 5 today and saw that 聞く means "to ask," as well meaning "to listen," which I learned in chapter 3.
I just want to clarify a couple things. Am I correct about the following meanings:
音楽を聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to music. (I don't really have doubts about this one)
あなたを聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to you.
あなたにききました。 ⇒ I asked you.
Sorry for the long post. Thanks in advance!
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
- Yudan Taiteki
- Posts: 5609
- Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
- Native language: English
Re: A few questions
In general, noun + する has a very wide range of uses. As you mention, it's flexible.lonelytraveler8 wrote:I finished going through the chapter 3 exercises the other day, but I had to skip a few things because I didn't quite understand.
It seems the verb する is more flexible than I would have thought. For example, I wouldn't have expected スポーツをします to mean "I play sports." Anyway, at one point (I-E for those who have the book) there is a table where the first column is a list of verbs and then each verb has a row of "items," as the book says, that you have to ask about using said verb.
The last row has the following:
~をします | date | study | telephone | tennis
I'm not really sure how to use the verb with most of these. I could make the following questions:
デートをしませんか。
でんわをしませんか。
テニスをしませんか。
The last one makes sense to me. The others don't. As for study, I know the verb 勉強する, but I don't know a noun that I could use to create a question similar to the ones above.
I guess they want 勉強をしませんか? My feeling is that 勉強する is more common than 勉強をする, but they're both possible. They don't really have different meanings.
That is an option, but it's not necessary. The comma just indicates a pause in speech.朝、何をしますか。
I can understand what the question is asking, but why separate 朝 with a comma instead of making it the topic of the sentence using -は?
I think that's right.音楽を聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to music. (I don't really have doubts about this one)
あなたを聞きました。 ⇒ I listened to you.
あなたにききました。 ⇒ I asked you.
-Chris Kern
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
Thanks for the reply. It was very helpful having all that cleared up.
I just realized that I wrote all my questions in my first post wrong. They're fine as they are, I suppose, but I meant to use ~ますか rather than ~ませんか.
I just realized that I wrote all my questions in my first post wrong. They're fine as they are, I suppose, but I meant to use ~ますか rather than ~ませんか.
That's odd. I can only assume that 勉強 is a noun that means study without looking it up. It was taught as a verb, and I don't have any knowledge of converting a verb into a noun. I also don't see why one would use 勉強をする instead of 勉強する, but for some reason I feel a little comforted knowing that such an alternative exists.Yudan Taiteki wrote:I guess they want 勉強をしませんか? My feeling is that 勉強する is more common than 勉強をする, but they're both possible. They don't really have different meanings.
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
- Yudan Taiteki
- Posts: 5609
- Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
- Native language: English
Re: A few questions
It's really the other way around; you make a noun into a verb by adding する.lonelytraveler8 wrote: That's odd. I can only assume that 勉強 is a noun that means study without looking it up. It was taught as a verb, and I don't have any knowledge of converting a verb into a noun.
Actually the issue of nounをする vs. nounする is extremely complicated and is not fully understood even by linguists, so it's not something you need to worry greatly about. The difference, if one exists, is very small.I also don't see why one would use 勉強をする instead of 勉強する, but for some reason I feel a little comforted knowing that such an alternative exists.
The only thing you do have to know is that you cannot have two を in one sentence, so you can say 日本語(にほんご)を勉強する but not *日本語を勉強をする.
-Chris Kern
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
That makes sense, but it's not generally such a simple matter to get a verb, is it? That's a poorly phrased question, so no need to really answer it.Yudan Taiteki wrote:It's really the other way around; you make a noun into a verb by adding する.
Actually, that makes sense to me. I understand を as a means to denote the direct object of the sentence. To have more than one would contradict the point of a direct object.Yudan Taiteki wrote:The only thing you do have to know is that you cannot have two を in one sentence, so you can say 日本語(にほんご)を勉強する but not *日本語を勉強をする.
I have another quick question. What does 日本語を勉強する mean? I'm not familiar with the use of a non-conjugated verb.
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Re: A few questions
From your first post:lonelytraveler8 wrote: I have another quick question. What does 日本語を勉強する mean? I'm not familiar with the use of a non-conjugated verb.
I can safely assume you already know する = します?lonelytraveler8 wrote:It seems the verb する is more flexible than I would have thought. For example, I wouldn't have expected スポーツをします to mean "I play sports."
Is it easier if it reads: 日本語を勉強します?
日本語 にほんご
勉強 べんきょう
する・します
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
Well. Yes...
I just didn't know if 勉強する should be used differently than 勉強します. It seems to be it would be pretty pointless to have the conjugation if they meant the same thing...
I just didn't know if 勉強する should be used differently than 勉強します. It seems to be it would be pretty pointless to have the conjugation if they meant the same thing...
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
- becki_kanou
- Posts: 3402
- Joined: Sat 04.19.2008 10:09 pm
- Skype chat: yes_becki
- Native language: U.S. English, 米語
- Gender: Female
- Location: Hyogo, Japan
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
The difference between する and します is one of politeness/formality rather than tense/etc. They mean the same thing, but which you use depends on the situation and on your relationship with the person you're speaking to.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
Oh! That makes sense. Thank you very much!
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Re: A few questions
*skims Genki through Chapter 3*
*boggles*
I never even noticed that it doesn't bother to tell you the difference between dictionary form and ~masu/desu speech. What an annoying omission. It's one of the first things students encounter. Fail on the part of an otherwise excellent resource. Maybe they figure the teacher in a class would fill in that info?
*boggles*
I never even noticed that it doesn't bother to tell you the difference between dictionary form and ~masu/desu speech. What an annoying omission. It's one of the first things students encounter. Fail on the part of an otherwise excellent resource. Maybe they figure the teacher in a class would fill in that info?
- lonelytraveler8
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Fri 12.12.2008 10:49 am
- Native language: 英語
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
Is there any chance you could expand on that point a little bit or maybe link me to a resource on it. I'm not entirely sure what I might be missing, so I'd be flying blind in a search.
Blog: http://www.LicensedToChaos.arcrpg.co.cc
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
Do you like to roleplay? Have you heard of Play-By-Post? Give it a shot at ARCRPG and help us build a great community.
- phreadom
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1762
- Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
- Native language: U.S. English (米語)
- Gender: Male
- Location: Michigan, USA
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
Then I think you skimmed a little too quickly...Sairana wrote:*skims Genki through Chapter 3*
*boggles*
I never even noticed that it doesn't bother to tell you the difference between dictionary form and ~masu/desu speech. What an annoying omission. It's one of the first things students encounter. Fail on the part of an otherwise excellent resource. Maybe they figure the teacher in a class would fill in that info?

In the second sentence of Chapter 3, it reads: "In this lesson, we learn three forms: (1) the "dictionary forms," (2) the present tense affirmative forms, and (3) the present tense negative forms.1"
If you notice the little 1 at the end pointing you to the footnote and follow that down to the bottom of the page, you notice the footnote that reads:
Now as I'm currently stuck in Chapter 6, I don't think I've gotten to the point where they cover this more in-depth. I could be mistaken though as I know I've about this and heard about this other places... so it wasn't as important to me as I already knew it... but I just wanted to point out that they do note that there is a difference and that they will get around to covering it in more detail.1The use of the term "dictionary forms" is by no means restricted to listings in a dictionary. They also appear in various constructions in actual sentences. We will learn their uses in later chapters. Don't be misled by the names given to the long forms too; the "present tense" in Japanese can indicate both the "present" and the "future." We will return to this issue in Section 2 below. For the moment, we will concentrate on the forms, not the meaning of these verbs.

Expression Notes (9) on page 160 covers ~する a bit more as it relates to nouns and irregular verbs.
As a matter of fact, starting on page 154 of Chapter 8, we actually dig into these forms directly, as Chapter 8 is specifically about "short forms", which the footnote clarifies as:
I think they cover it in a slightly more nuanced way than to simply drop it early on as something like "dictionary forms can be used informally" and choose rather to hold off for a bit until they can cover it more accurately and thoroughly in a later chapter.1Various names have been given to this paradigm. They include "plain forms," "informal forms," and "direct style." Long forms, on the other hand, are often called "polite forms," "formal forms," and "distal style."

I ♥ my Genki book!


猿も木から落ちる
Re: A few questions
Well, I always support Genki as the first choice for a student (as long as they get the audio, too!)
So I'm not really bashing on the textbook itself. I just would have expected it to just say in some form early on "the ~masu conjugation is for polite speech. We will cover how to speak informally later" or some such. Instead it just leads you to believe ~masu is the present and/or habitual state conjugation, which... I don't know. That just seems like they went too far to the simple side there.
I never noticed it because it's just one of those things I picked up long before I got my hands on Genki.
@lonelytraveler
The elaboration is pretty simple, becki actually already did it for you. ~masu/desu is standard polite speech... the kind of speech you'd use with someone you just met, with your teacher, etc. Speaking plainly involves not conjugating into ~masu form or using desu at the ends of sentences. This is mostly used among friends, family members, etc. Aside from the politeness level, as Becki said, it's meaning remains unchanged.
Genki WILL cover both.
So I'm not really bashing on the textbook itself. I just would have expected it to just say in some form early on "the ~masu conjugation is for polite speech. We will cover how to speak informally later" or some such. Instead it just leads you to believe ~masu is the present and/or habitual state conjugation, which... I don't know. That just seems like they went too far to the simple side there.
I never noticed it because it's just one of those things I picked up long before I got my hands on Genki.
@lonelytraveler
The elaboration is pretty simple, becki actually already did it for you. ~masu/desu is standard polite speech... the kind of speech you'd use with someone you just met, with your teacher, etc. Speaking plainly involves not conjugating into ~masu form or using desu at the ends of sentences. This is mostly used among friends, family members, etc. Aside from the politeness level, as Becki said, it's meaning remains unchanged.
Genki WILL cover both.

- phreadom
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1762
- Joined: Sun 01.29.2006 8:43 pm
- Native language: U.S. English (米語)
- Gender: Male
- Location: Michigan, USA
- Contact:
Re: A few questions
I'm glad to have the main Genki I book, the answer book (which covers both I and II), and the workbook and audio disk for I.
I haven't really used the workbook or the audio disk.
I really should, but I tend to hear a lot of audio in the J-dramas I watch, and I can't bring myself to write in the workbook.
Maybe if I had a photocopier... 
I think the plain/polite thing was also something I just sort of picked up in my general learning... but you're right in that it would probably be nice to have it put a little more clearly early on, at least as a side note.




I think the plain/polite thing was also something I just sort of picked up in my general learning... but you're right in that it would probably be nice to have it put a little more clearly early on, at least as a side note.

猿も木から落ちる