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Ordinary conversation

英語を勉強している方のためのフォーラムです。練習のために英語の文章を投稿してもかまわなく、英語の文法・語彙に関する質問をしてもけっこうです。

Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sat 08.08.2009 5:19 am

Hi everyone,

I am a newbie here and a native Japanese that is studying English.

Reading those substantial discussions taking place in this great site, I realized that there may be two sides in studying any foreign language.
One is of course the proper study like you do at school. The other is, you know, the ordinary conversation that you don't necessarily have to care about those grammatical accuracies.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not wanting to discuss about those coarse and vulgar languages you may find on street. But take the official qualification tests for language learners for instance. There are bunch of words and expressions that nobody uses in our daily life. I understand the necessity of acquiring them. Believe it or not, I myself have been studying this kind of English for many many years. I found many total bilingual people here and just for your imformation, I got 985 points at the TOEIC test last year, which seems to be concidered to be a relatively high score amongst normal Japanese. But I always feel uncomfortable and embarrassing when I speak in English. In other words, that score doesn't mean anything to me. I personally believe that the capacity for the ordinary conversation that no tests can evaluate would be the most challenging part of acquiring a foreign language.

What do you make of it?
Any opinion or advice is welcome.

Thank you.
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby Eiuol » Sat 08.08.2009 5:02 pm

I'll suggest some other ways to write your sentences so it's more clear:

Reading those substantial discussions taking place in this great site, I realized that there may be two sides in studying any foreign language.
"After reading the substantial discussions taking place on..."

The other is, you know, the ordinary conversation that you don't necessarily have to care about those grammatical accuracies.
"...the ordinary conversations where you don't necessarily need to worry about proper grammar."

Don't get me wrong. I'm not wanting to discuss about those coarse and vulgar languages you may find on street.
"Don't get me wrong, I don't want to speak in the coarse and vulgar language you may find on the street"

There are bunch of words and expressions that nobody uses in our daily life.
"...that nobody uses in their daily life"

I found many total bilingual people here and just for your imformation, I got 985 points at the TOEIC test last year, which seems to be concidered to be a relatively high score amongst normal Japanese.
"I found many bilingual here and just for your information, I got 985 points on the TOEIC, which seems to be considered a relatively high score amongst normal Japanese speakers"

But I always feel uncomfortable and embarrassing when I speak in English.
"...and embarrassed..."

In other words, that score doesn't mean anything to me.
"But that score doesn't mean anything to me."

I personally believe that the capacity for the ordinary conversation that no tests can evaluate would be the most challenging part of acquiring a foreign language.
"I personally believe that no test can evaluate what would be the most challenging part of acquiring a foreign language; ordinary conversation."

"In other words" should only be used when you're saying something you already said, except with different words.
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sat 08.08.2009 5:59 pm

Thank you very much for your comment, Eiuol.
It means a lot to me.
Your corrections are wonderful and very helpful.

I need to study it more harder.
Please help me out some times if you don't mind.

Thanks a million !
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby phreadom » Sat 08.08.2009 6:31 pm

NileCat wrote:Thank you very much for your comment, Eiuol.
It means a lot to me.
Your corrections are wonderful and very helpful.

I need to study it more harder.
Please help me out some times if you don't mind.

Thanks a million !


"I need to study it more." or "I need to study it harder." Saying "more harder" is redundant and incorrect. :)

As for the next sentence, there might better ways to say it... first, "sometimes" should be one word. You could also say something like "Please help me out in the future if you don't mind.", but just "Please help me out sometimes if you don't mind." is acceptable as well. :)

I think the difference is that "please help me out in the future" sounds like more "please continue to help me", whereas "please help me out sometimes" means to only help once in awhile. Periodically. So the first way sounds more like you would like to be helped any time you need it rather than only sometimes. ;) I hope this makes sense.

Also, I wanted to say that I generally agree with what you were saying in your original post. You will very rarely see actual conversational language covered in textbooks. We talk about it in the chat from time to time where in English conversation you would be more likely to respond "yeah" instead of "yes" in an informal setting. Or maybe things like saying "hey" or "hi" instead of "hello" etc. I'm sure others have some better examples of English expressions that you would commonly see in conversation but not in textbooks. :)

Keep up the good work! :D
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sat 08.08.2009 6:56 pm

Thank you so much, Phreadom.

I'm gonna keep studying until getting too old to remember even my name. :roll:
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 08.08.2009 9:42 pm

Hello Nilecat! Welcome to TJP and thanks for all your help already. I think you'll become a valuable member of this forum.

As for your question, I think it depends on the method of study. If you study entirely or mostly from textbooks, or for the purpose of passing a test, then you'll be better at formal language, and probably have difficulty with casual idiomatic language even if you have a large vocabulary. However, if you learn by immersion and casual conversation with the people around you everyday you'll naturally become good at that type of language.

For me, I studied Japanese for four years at university, then moved to Japan where I've been living for the past nine years. I have a lot of Japanese friends so I have no trouble with casual language, but I rarely write anything by hand, so my kanji writing is severely lacking.
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.09.2009 4:24 am

Thanks for your comment, Becki.
Well... For I suppose you are one of the founders of this wonderful site, I'd like to ask you something.
And, because it seems very important to me, please forgive my writing in Japanese. I'd like to avoid misunderstandings and unfortunately it's beyond my ability of English.

ここでのメンバーの多くは、2種類に大別されるように思ったのです。日本のアニメ等を通して日本語に興味を持ちそれを高めたい層と、日本語検定試験を視野に入れて日本語を職業的にも使うことを想定している層。
私個人としては、ちょっとだけでも皆さんのお役に立てればと思ったわけですが、日本語の用法に関する質問に答えるにあたっては、実はどのようにお答えすべきかを見分けるのが、存外大変であることに気づいたわけです。
乱暴な言い方をすると、「口語体」と「文語体」のどのあたりを「適切」と見て回答すべきか、ということですね。

教科書的な用法・例文は、巷に多くの書籍があふれていますから、できれば私は「日常的に自然に使われる日本語」を念頭にお答えしていこうかな、と思っております。でも、たとえば・・・
Excuse me → すみません これは正しいわけですが、恐らく日常的には日本人の圧倒的多数が「すいません」と発音すると思われます。自然です。しかし、テストでは誤りとされるでしょう。

・・・ごめんなさい。長くなってしまいました。要は、もし私の回答等が(日本語学習者にとって)不適切とお感じになったら、是非教えて下さいね、ということです。
ちなみに私は、芸術/エンターテインメント系の分野を仕事としておりますので、正しい口語体(そんなものがあるとしたらですが)については、ご信用頂いて大丈夫だと思います。

Thank you.
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby coco » Sun 08.09.2009 9:16 am

NileCatさん、はじめまして。よろしくお願いします。 :)
NileCat wrote:ここでのメンバーの多くは、2種類に大別されるように思ったのです。日本のアニメ等を通して日本語に興味を持ちそれを高めたい層と、日本語検定試験を視野に入れて日本語を職業的にも使うことを想定している層。
私個人としては、ちょっとだけでも皆さんのお役に立てればと思ったわけですが、日本語の用法に関する質問に答えるにあたっては、実はどのようにお答えすべきかを見分けるのが、存外大変であることに気づいたわけです。
乱暴な言い方をすると、「口語体」と「文語体」のどのあたりを「適切」と見て回答すべきか、ということですね。


なにが正しい日本語であるのか私も迷いましたし、今も迷っています。

日本語の口語体といっても、対面して話す場合、自ずと相手との関係性を意識しながら話すわけです。

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10410
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9869

このような言葉遣いが通じる社会もあるでしょうし、通じない社会もあります。

またアニメに興味があっても、二十歳を過ぎてアニメ語しか話せなければ、ご本人がいずれ恥ずかしい思いをなさるでしょう。
私のこれまでの印象からいうと、JLPTを受ける人も、ほとんどは日本のアニメやマンガ、テレビドラマや小説にも興味をもっています。口語(会話文)も試験問題に出てきますから、もし「JLPTを受験する人は口語が不得意である」と考えていらっしゃるのであれば、それは少し違うように思います。口語でよく使われる転訛などには、一定の法則性がありますから、文法が得意な人の方が理解が速いという側面もあるでしょう。

ちなみに私は、芸術/エンターテインメント系の分野を仕事としておりますので、正しい口語体(そんなものがあるとしたらですが)については、ご信用頂いて大丈夫だと思います。

NileCatさんも、仕事の取引先と普段話す言葉、同僚と話す言葉、学生時代の後輩に話す言葉、家族・親族に話す言葉は違いますよね。男性、女性の別だけでなく、一人称も含めてその口語が使われる人間関係などが説明できれば、みなさんの勉強になるのではないかと思います。
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9372
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10993

このフォーラムのすべてが高校生の「タメ口」のようになってしまったら、得るものより失うものの方が多いのは明らかです(もちろん、NileCatさんがそれを意図しているとは思っていませんが)。 口語体の練習として、Yudanさんの「爽健美茶」のスレッドのように、ある一定のスレッド内で、「親しい友人同士であれば不快には感じられない」という程度の口調を学ぶ場をつくることは、望ましい試みだと私は思います。

フォーラムは「書き文字」での応答ですが、文語体だとは思いませんので、話し言葉に近い書き言葉だと私は思っています。NileCatさんの書かれた日本語の文章は文語ですか? もしそうであれば、同文を「口語体」に書き直してくださると、みなさんの勉強になるかもしれません。 :)
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.09.2009 9:54 am

Coco-san,

Thank you for your good advice.
I totally agree wth you and will do my best.

And as your suggestion seemed kind of interesting, I tried to translate my writing into 口語体.
I don't know if it helps for anyone though... (is it wrong to put 'for' ?)
Anyway,

思うんですけど、たぶん大きく分けると、どっちかになるんじゃないかな、と。
アニメ好きだったりして日本語をもっと知りたいという皆さんと、専門的に勉強したいって皆さん。
私は、なんとなくお役に立てればって思ってるだけなんですけど、その気になってみると、実はこれがなかなか難しい。なんと申しましょうか、「気さくな感じ」と「きっちりした表現」の境界線とでも言いましょうか・・・回答する立場に回ると、けっこう気をつけなくちゃな、と思ったんです。

Please note that this writing is very colloquial. Still, there is no rude or offensive expression included, I believe.

Thank you for reading.
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby coco » Sun 08.09.2009 10:20 am

NileCat wrote:思うんですけど、たぶん大きく分けると、どっちかになるんじゃないかな、と。
アニメ好きだったりして日本語をもっと知りたいという皆さんと、専門的に勉強したいって皆さん。
私は、なんとなくお役に立てればって思ってるだけなんですけど、その気になってみると、実はこれがなかなか難しい。なんと申しましょうか、「気さくな感じ」と「きっちりした表現」の境界線とでも言いましょうか・・・回答する立場に回ると、けっこう気をつけなくちゃな、と思ったんです。

Please note that this writing is very colloquial. Still, there is no rude or offensive expression included, I believe.


まったく問題ないと思います。 :lol:

かなり失礼な例をひとつ作ってみました。
口語:男性 

なんつーか思うんだけど、大きくわけるとどっちかになるんじゃない?
アニメ好きで日本語もっと知りたいってヤツと、文法オタクみたいなヤツ。役に立てればって思うんだけど、これが結構むずいんだよな。普段俺らがしゃべってる言葉と、教科書みたいな話し方のどっちにすりゃいいのか迷っちまってさ。答える側になると、あんがい気ぃつかうもんだよな。


これがTJPフォーラムにあった場合の私の想定回答。 :D

coco wrote:あなたは誰に対して話していますか。 :x
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.09.2009 10:27 am

Good job, Coco-san ! :lol:
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Sun 08.09.2009 12:22 pm

I've just finished reading all the comments posted in the trees coco indicated.
Unlike most of you, I can't blame them nor laugh at them.
As I wrote before, I'm studying English. And I have no idea how my English sounds, to be honest.
For instance,
If you think it would embarrass your grandma, don't put it here.

I totally understand the idea and agree with it.
But, well... no offense, I have never had grandma who speaks English in my life.
I am even not sure if the word 'grandma' is polite enough rather than saying 'grandmother'.
When I was young, I studied English very hard only to get good scores at school. Believe it or not, I was good with that. But I hadn't spoken with any native English speakers except for only few teachers untill I got 25. And years after that, it was only a couple of years ago when I made up my mind to restart studying it, properly, this time.
I started watching news programs like many English lerners. Then TVs and films. I clearly remember the first wall I hit, which was colloquialism. Have you ever seen a film called 'An Incovenient Truth' ? That was not too tough to understand because Mr.Former Vice President spoke very properly, of course. But right after seeing that, I watched the film called 'Juno'. It was a good film describing a life of a high school girl. And, you know, I couldn't make heads or tails of it, which made me very sad.

I'm still wondering how I can improve my English.
That's the reason why I'm here now.

Sorry if I'm posting an improper comment for this forum. :oops:
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby coco » Mon 08.10.2009 1:27 am

16歳の男の子の日本語学習者が、70歳の青森県に住む女性の話し言葉を学んでしまったら、同年代の日本の男の子と会話をするのに支障をきたします。また50歳の英語学習者が、英語母語話者である中学生同士の会話を学ぼうとすることも、あまり実用的だとは思えません。

私は、似たような社会的属性、あるいはなにがしかの知的興味を共有できる同年代の同性(尊敬できる人物なら尚結構)から口語を学ぶのがよい方法ではないかと常々思っています。

フォーラムで投稿者の属性を推定するのは時間がかかることですので、上でPhreadomさんが少し触れているように、TJPのチャットに参加してみてはいかがでしょうか。 そこである程度、気の合う人を見つけて口語を習い、Skypeなどで音声を交わすといった方法もあると思います。

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13104
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12437
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12351
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10788
加えていえば、NileCatさんのプロフィールの言語情報に日本語が母語であることを明記しておけば、「日本語教えて! Skypeしようよ! :D :D 」などというPM(private message)が送られてくることもあります。
(口語は母語話者から習いたいと思うのが通常なので、母語情報と性別情報はこういう場合、重要だと思います。)

いい会話相手が見つかるといいですね。 :)
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Mon 08.10.2009 10:31 am

coco-san,
Thanks again for your good suggestion.

But I'm afraid you wouldn't have made out what I wanted to say, because of my poor English.
You can differentiate the way of speaking of a 70-year-old granma who has a strong dialect of Aomori or a 11-year-old geek boy who doesn't behave himself from other people's 'proper' ways of speaking.
Why are you able to do that?
That's because you possess the enough knowledge about those inappropriate ways of speaking.
You can't just say "you don't need to know".

I'm sorry if it sounded rude.
I just wanted to make myself clear, for my own sake.
Actually, your wonderful opinions gave me a good opportunity to think over this interesting issue.
Thank you.
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Re: Ordinary conversation

Postby NileCat » Wed 08.12.2009 5:05 pm

Would someone do me a favor ?

口語例:男性 

なんつーか思うんだけど、大きくわけるとどっちかになるんじゃない?
アニメ好きで日本語もっと知りたいってヤツと、文法オタクみたいなヤツ。役に立てればって思うんだけど、これが結構むずいんだよな。普段俺らがしゃべってる言葉と、教科書みたいな話し方のどっちにすりゃいいのか迷っちまってさ。答える側になると、あんがい気ぃつかうもんだよな。

This is what coco-san kindly created for me with a serious intention, which seems very well done to me.
If anyone would translate it for me into English as it is, I would highly appreciate it.
And if you think it's inappropriate to post it here, just PM to me please.

Thank you very much.
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