Mr.Papers' Language Learning Method

[AJBryant]

You're much more lenient than I would have been.

There would have been no term limit if I'd done the banning.

[furrykef]

Well, he did have a rather short amount of time to absorb what we were trying to tell him, and he probably underestimated the severity of the problem. It probably just needs a bit of time to sink in.

[phreadom]

You're much more lenient than I would have been.

There would have been no term limit if I'd done the banning.

It's the first time I haven't perm banned someone. And make no mistake, if he comes back and continues the attitude the next ban will be permanent.

[Yudan Taiteki]

Yeah, I definitely don't feel a permanent ban is necessary yet -- his posts were annoying, but he didn't directly insult anyone, use profanity, or make any major rule violations, he was just being arrogant. I definitely think a second chance is warranted.

[phreadom]

Yeah, I definitely don't feel a permanent ban is necessary yet -- his posts were annoying, but he didn't directly insult anyone, use profanity, or make any major rule violations, he was just being arrogant. I definitely think a second chance is warranted.

It wasn't just his string of rude posts either, it was the fact that I private messaged him a stern warning (which I know he read) and he continued rather unabated. And even when people tried talking to him, he was just rude and dismissive to them as well. That's the reason I banned him but made it temporary. I figured a week sounded about right. I didn't want to make it short enough that he'd come right back and continue the same behavior, but I also didn't want to make it exceptionally long.

But if he comes back after this and doesn't make any change at all, then I don't see a reason to give him another chance after that. We don't need exceptionally rude and arrogant trouble makers here who intentionally dig up half a dozen necroposts just to make rude comments on them, and then tell people off who try to correct him on his other posts etc.

[Yudan Taiteki]

Definitely. I think that if he comes back after the ban and continues acting in the same manner, a permanent ban is definitely the way to go. Obviously I'm not trying to dictate policy here or anything, just my personal feeling that immediate and permanent bans should be reserved for spammers, obviously over-the-top stuff (like that guy who was posting the beheading and poop pictures), or repeated direct insults and profanity. I also would consider it a mitigating factor that he does seem to have an actual interest in learning Japanese -- I think probably that more than anything else is why I favor giving him a second chance.

[phreadom]

Definitely. I think that if he comes back after the ban and continues acting in the same manner, a permanent ban is definitely the way to go. Obviously I'm not trying to dictate policy here or anything, just my personal feeling that immediate and permanent bans should be reserved for spammers, obviously over-the-top stuff (like that guy who was posting the beheading and poop pictures), or repeated direct insults and profanity. I also would consider it a mitigating factor that he does seem to have an actual interest in learning Japanese -- I think probably that more than anything else is why I favor giving him a second chance.

Yeah, the fact that he does seem to have a legitimate interest in the language was probably his saving grace. I'm just hoping he can shape up and learn how to be a part of the community.

[astaroth]

obviously over-the-top stuff (like that guy who was posting the beheading and poop pictures

Oh God! I completely removed that poster ... now I have to go through therapy all over again ...

[Cyborg Ninja]

I notice this forum doesn't get many new users. In fact, I heard someone on Youtube recently call this place "dead." I think he, too, noticed the clannishness of its more established members - more like it's only members. You get a few new people asking questions, and then they quickly get driven off.

[furrykef]

"Clannishness" has nothing to do with it. Have you seen the posts we were complaining about? Somebody who has trouble with very basic Japanese and yet goes around saying "I am not a beginner" and "I know what I'm doing" pretty much deserves what he gets. Also, would you take language learning advice (which, again, was given in a deceptively authoritative manner) from somebody who thinks "I don't like milk" is "Miruku ga sukkunai na"? There are no less than three mistakes in that sentence, even: using "miruku" instead of "gyuunyuu", trying to conjugate "suki" like an i-adjective, and appending "na" to the end for no apparent reason. See, it's understandable that somebody could make such mistakes (especially the first one), but the thing is, somebody who does is simply not in a position to tell others how to learn a language, or to go around saying "I know what I'm doing".

All that said, I don't want to knock Mr. Paper too hard because he's since realized that his behavior was unacceptable, but I definitely had cause to say what I did. As I said in my post, I rarely ever take someone to task the way I did in this thread, and other members here can attest to that.

As for there being few newbies around here, that happens at most forums. Only the really big forums get a steady influx of new users. But anyway, from what I've seen, newbies are generally welcomed with open arms. Only people who do something wrong will get the cold shoulder, and when it happens, they can choose either to take it as a sign that they should find out what they did wrong and fix it, or to complain about how much we suck and leave. So if people are getting driven off, that's just their own choice.

- Kef

[phreadom]

I notice this forum doesn't get many new users. In fact, I heard someone on Youtube recently call this place "dead." I think he, too, noticed the clannishness of its more established members - more like it's only members. You get a few new people asking questions, and then they quickly get driven off.

I'm curious about which youtube video that is. Could you provide a link please? I'd like to see it for myself. (And no, I have no intention of harassing them or anything. I simply like to see what people are saying so that we might correct a problem if we are in fact doing something wrong.)

Thanks.

[Yudan Taiteki]

Also I don't think it's necessarily true that if a newbie makes some posts and then leaves, that they were driven off. There are a lot of people who have an interest in studying Japanese but don't really have the motivation or time to actually take up study of the language seriously.

EDIT: Honestly as I've said before, I think for the most part this website is quite friendly and helpful to newcomers. I can imagine that it might look somewhat serious and thus imposing or scary to a new person, but I think that's a natural side effect of the fact that we have a good number of people who are skilled at Japanese and can answer questions well.

This sort of criticism comes up occasionally but nobody can ever point to any specific posts or threads or offer specific advice for what could be done to make the place more accepting of new posters. I think that phreadom would welcome such suggestions.

[AJBryant]

And there are also the folks who have no interest in Japanese per se, but want to know what something in a video game says, or what "Stud man" is in Japanese "symbols" for their next tattoo.

They wouldn't likely hang around having gotten what they wanted (or having gotten upset at being told the conventional opinion of kanji tattoos).

[coco]

I notice this forum doesn't get many new users. In fact, I heard someone on Youtube recently call this place "dead." I think he, too, noticed the clannishness of its more established members - more like it's only members. You get a few new people asking questions, and then they quickly get driven off.

I'm curious about which youtube video that is. Could you provide a link please? I'd like to see it for myself. (And no, I have no intention of harassing them or anything. I simply like to see what people are saying so that we might correct a problem if we are in fact doing something wrong.)

Thanks.

Yes, I am very curious about it, too. Cyborg Ninja-san, could you please tell us the link?
Thank you.
---
Edit: I think the fixed-term ban for this case has worked very effectively.

[phreadom]

I notice this forum doesn't get many new users.

In reality we've had 17 new users so far today.
22 yesterday.
28 the day before that.
19 the day before that.
18 the day before that.
27 the day before that.
19 the day before that.
20 the day before that.
etc.

It's a pretty consistent pace from what I see looking back at it.

Most people sign up because they want to learn, so they read the posts etc. A lot of the people that hang out in the chat room for instance rarely if ever actually post. I myself barely posted for probably the first 2 years I was a member because I was too shy to try out my skills. I still very rarely try posting anything in Japanese.

Perhaps you'd like to offer some advice as to what things we might do to make the site friendlier or more attractive to get more people participating or something?

I think one perception the site gets is for being strict... but having been around for awhile, it seems to me that many here simply take the language a little more seriously than anime kids trying to learn a few words to look cool.

For instance I saw on another forum today someone said

"Beautiful is "Kirei." "My beautiful" is "Watashi no kirei." Remember to use "Watashi no" for "my." as in "Watashi no neko." "My cat."

to which another person answered

Kirei is an adjective, you can't use it like that.

I've seen people get upset, offended, or have their feelings hurt enough that they don't want to post anymore over tiny corrections like that here... and I admit that even I was guilty of the same thing a few years ago after being corrected on writing "minna-san".

I really don't know how to avoid hurting people's feelings who are so sensitive... people who don't want to play by the rules etc... who expect the work to be done for them, and to treat the forum like it's a kiddie chat for text speak etc. I don't know how else to explain it. I can't think of many ways to alter the way the forum runs that wouldn't harm the quality of the discussions herein.

But I'm all eyes/ears if you have suggestions.