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Translate into japanese ....

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Translate into japanese ....

Postby squarezebra » Sun 09.06.2009 10:51 am

Can anyone check these for me, and offer suggestions. Thanks :D

I heard John and Marie talking in that room over there: ジョンさんとマリーさんと一緒にその部屋では話しているのを聞こえました。

I saw a very young man driving a large black car (i struggled on this one in particular): 大きな黒い車の運伝しているとても若い人を見た。

Please come punctually : 時間通りに来て下さい。

We can hear the children laughing in the garden: 私達は庭で子供達が笑っているのを聞こえます

I saw a girl in a red jersey steal a purse from that woman who was standing at the entrance of the building: 赤いセーター着て女の子はそのビルの入り口で立った女の財布を盗むのを見た

:D
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby NileCat » Sun 09.06.2009 11:28 am

I heard John and Marie talking in that room over there: ジョンさんとマリーさんと一緒にその部屋では話しているのを聞こえました。

ジョンさんとマリーさんが一緒にその部屋で話しているのが聞こえました。
(私は)ジョンさんとマリーさんが一緒にその部屋で話しているのを聞きました。

I saw a very young man driving a large black car (i struggled on this one in particular): 大きな黒い車の運伝しているとても若い人を見た。

大きな黒い車を運転しているとても若い人を見た。(見ました)

Please come punctually : 時間通りに来て下さい。

Fine.

We can hear the children laughing in the garden: 私達は庭で子供達が笑っているのを聞こえます

私達には庭で子供達が笑っているのが聞こえます。
私達は庭で子供達が笑っているのを聞くことができます。
庭で子供達が笑っているのが聞こえます。
子供達が庭で笑っているのが聞こえます。
I saw a girl in a red jersey steal a purse from that woman who was standing at the entrance of the building: 赤いセーター着て女の子はそのビルの入り口で立った女の財布を盗むのを見た

(私は、)赤いセーターを着た女の子が、そのビルの入り口に立っていた女の財布を盗むのを見た。(「、」is optional)
赤いセーターを着た女の子が、そのビルの入り口で立っていた女の財布を盗むのを見た。
赤いセーターを着た女の子が、そのビルの入り口で立っていた女から財布を盗むのを見た。
赤いセーターの女の子が is also fine.

Good work as usual, squarezebra-san! :)
Last edited by NileCat on Sun 09.06.2009 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby NileCat » Sun 09.06.2009 11:43 am

Correction.

In the first sentence, "in that room over there"
向(む)こうのあの部屋で would be better if you want to translate it accurately.

ジョンさんとマリーさんが一緒に、向こうのあの部屋で話しているのが聞こえました。
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby squarezebra » Sun 09.06.2009 12:32 pm

Ahhh, ありがとうございました、 ナイルさん。
I Think I need to study your examples closely, as there are still a few things there I don't understand.
I still make a lot of mistakes with はand が.

If I hadn't provided the English translations, do you think i would still have been understood with what i came up with? Or could my translations have been misleading?

thanks again! You truly are a great help :D
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby NileCat » Sun 09.06.2009 12:46 pm

squarezebra wrote:If I hadn't provided the English translations, do you think i would still have been understood with what i came up with?

100% understandable!
All of your mistakes are very small grammar things.
Unfortunately I'm not a right person who can explain those grammatical rules in English though, checking your work is good for my English study as well. :)
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 09.06.2009 1:00 pm

I think the main thing was just a few rules for relative clauses (or subordinate clauses, whatever you call them).

First, 99.9% of the time you do not use は in a relative clause (thus nilecat's correction of では to で in the first example, and the later correction of は to が). So in other words, you want 女の人が立ったのを見た for "I saw the girl standing" rather than 女の人は.

Second, の can only stand in for が, not for を. So 僕の使った本 (the book I used) is fine, but *えさの食べた猫 cannot be used for "the cat that ate food" (it would mean "The food that ate the cat").
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby squarezebra » Sun 09.06.2009 2:44 pm

Ahh, thanks Yudan!
What kind of food do you prepare for your cat? :twisted:
(Remind me NEVER to call round for dinner :lol: )
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby snmcrae » Sun 09.06.2009 9:34 pm

Another big point to keep in mind:

聞こえる and 見える are INTRANSITIVE verbs. They do not take a direct object with を. 聞く and 見る are TRANSITIVE and can have a direct object with を. Even 聞ける and 見られる, which express different nuances of being able to hear or see something than do 聞こえる and 見える, generally should be considered intransitive.

It is probably helpful to think of 聞こえる and 見える as "audible" and "visible" in English, and not "can hear" and "can see". This will help you maintain the intransitivity across the linguistic divide.

As such, the thing that is seen or heard is actually the subject in these sentences (not the object) and thus would take が and not を.

The same kind of logic applies to 分かる (but not 知る).
# 私は言葉の意味分かります。
#私は言葉の意味知っています。
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 09.07.2009 8:50 am

Although in these cases the thing that does the understanding is also marked by が (usually replaced by は, but not always, particularly in relative clauses). i.e. 彼が英語が分かるのを見て、びっくりした。 With 聞こえる and 見える you don't get this (JSL uses the term "double ga predicates" but I don't think any other book or resource has a name for these.)
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby snmcrae » Mon 09.07.2009 11:40 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Although in these cases the thing that does the understanding is also marked by が (usually replaced by は, but not always, particularly in relative clauses). i.e. 彼が英語が分かるのを見て、びっくりした。 With 聞こえる and 見える you don't get this (JSL uses the term "double ga predicates" but I don't think any other book or resource has a name for these.)


When talking about by whom something is able to be seen or heard in sentences with 聞こえる and 見える, don't you have to mark that person with に?

Nilecat gave an example, I think, when he wrote:

私達は庭で子供達が笑っているのが聞こえます。

This may be going out on a limb, but I always thought that a sentence like the following would be incorrect:

私達庭で子供達が笑っているのが聞こえます。

A literal, but infelicitous, translation that most closely maintains the grammatical structure would be:

"For us, the kids laughing in the park is audible."

I've always (probably mistakenly) thought that a double ga sentence is not really possible with 聞こえる or 見える because of the requirement for に.
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 09.07.2009 12:58 pm

snmcrae wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:Although in these cases the thing that does the understanding is also marked by が (usually replaced by は, but not always, particularly in relative clauses). i.e. 彼が英語が分かるのを見て、びっくりした。 With 聞こえる and 見える you don't get this (JSL uses the term "double ga predicates" but I don't think any other book or resource has a name for these.)


When talking about by whom something is able to be seen or heard in sentences with 聞こえる and 見える, don't you have to mark that person with に?


As far as I know you're right -- I should have been a little more clear, I was saying that there's a difference between something like 分かる, where both the understander and the thing understood are marked by が, and something like 聞こえる where only the thing heard is marked by が.
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby NileCat » Mon 09.07.2009 1:07 pm

snmcrae wrote:I've always (probably mistakenly) thought that a double ga sentence is not really possible with 聞こえる or 見える because of the requirement for に.

Hmm...I think you are absolutely right.
I've tried to come up with an exceptional possibility for over 30 minutes.

The only exceptional example I came up with which we actually use was;
彼が目が見えるなんて知らなかった。
But it doesn't seem to be grammatically correct.
In this case, "目が見える" is only used as a "one phrasal adjective"ish.

Hmm...I didn't know how difficult Japanese grammar was... :shock:
Last edited by NileCat on Mon 09.07.2009 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby squarezebra » Mon 09.07.2009 1:12 pm

Wow, I really have learnt a lot in this thread!
Let's hope that I can apply it in future.

Thank you very much guys/gals :D
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Mon 09.07.2009 2:09 pm

NileCat wrote:
snmcrae wrote:I've always (probably mistakenly) thought that a double ga sentence is not really possible with 聞こえる or 見える because of the requirement for に.

Hmm...I think you are absolutely right.
I've tried to come up with an exceptional possibility for over 30 minutes.

The only exceptional example I came up with which we actually use was;
彼が目が見えるなんて知らなかった。
But it doesn't seem to be grammatically correct.
In this case, "目が見える" is only used as a "one phrasal adjective"ish.


This is different, isn't it? If I'm not mistaken, the 見える in 目が見える is "can see", rather than "can be seen", so 彼が目が見える is like 彼が日本語が話せる or the like.

But maybe I don't know the idiom 目が見える.
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Re: Translate into japanese ....

Postby furrykef » Mon 09.07.2009 9:46 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:This is different, isn't it? If I'm not mistaken, the 見える in 目が見える is "can see", rather than "can be seen", so 彼が目が見える is like 彼が日本語が話せる or the like.


If so, it's an odd way to form the potential, 'cause the standard potential form of 見る is 見られる. (Although I'm sure you know that, so I'm wondering if I'm missing something here...)

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