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「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

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「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby Frobnitz » Fri 09.11.2009 2:22 am

1) Two professors are looking over some schematics a dead colleague, a Mr. Ohta, drew up for an invention, a vehicle. They have started building the vehicle but are wondering why it has such a large energy tank.

どのみち船の事を考えるならばここで点検せにゃならん。その都度補充すりゃいいのに。なんのために、こんな容量積みやがんだ

What function does "sono tsudo" serve here? Is it "whenever we want", "for the occasion of the inspection", or something else?

2) A group of students are speculating about the issues mentioned in 1).

「一体、何に消費するんだろう」
「太田先生のことだしなぁ」

I'm familiar with "shi" and "naa" separately, of course, but having both together is for some reason confusing me. "It's Mr. Ohta's [plan], so...[only he knows what the tank is for, etc.]"? "Only Mr. Ohta knows, I guess..."? "Only Mr. Ohta knows, right?..."? What nuance do the two particles give in conjunction?

Thanks again for any help.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby keatonatron » Fri 09.11.2009 7:58 am

According to WWWJDIC, その都度 (on entry) means "every time".

The のに at the end of this sentence implies "[one] should [verb] but doesn't", so I take it to mean "You should really just fill it up each time [you use it]. Why is there so much already in here?" (the second sentence is a loose translation :wink: )

し is an ending used to give one reason amongst many (in this case "It is Mr. Ohta's" is one reason for it being strange... but there are other [unspoken] reasons as well).

なぁ is often used to show that the speaker is talking to themselves, asking a question they don't expect an answer to, or marveling at something.

Put them together, like in this sentence, and you simply combine those two ideas. :wink:

"It belongs to Mr. Ohta, for one thing...." he said to himself.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby Hyperworm » Fri 09.11.2009 8:37 am

<名前>のことだ=knowing <name>... / it is <name> / considering what we know about <name> ...
"[Yeah/Well], we are talking about Mr.Ohta here..." or something?

I agree that し is listing one reason amongst many, but it's kind of subtle and maybe shouldn't be included explicitly in translation?
I wouldn't go so far as to say なぁ is "talking to oneself", but I think it's the right idea... it kind of feels like a personal thought voiced and left in the air for other people to comment on if they want, but it still forms part of the conversation.
fun translation snippets | need something translated?
BTC@1KMZXgoWiDshQis5Z7feCx8jaiP4QAB2ks
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby keatonatron » Fri 09.11.2009 12:27 pm

Hyperworm wrote:I wouldn't go so far as to say なぁ is "talking to oneself"...


I think the best explanation is "rhetorical question/statement".

Obviously it's something you want to say to others, otherwise you wouldn't say it. (Things you don't want to say but do anyway are called "outbursts" :wink: )

However, it is not intended to be directed at a specific person, and not intended to receive a reaction or reply.

Of course people might expect a response when using a sentence like this, but they are talking under the pretense of not expecting one.

In this situation, if the なぁ were not there it would sound like he was answering everyone's questions with his statement (or, he would sound like he thought he was answering them!). By adding なぁ, it turns his statement into simple information that is not intended to have direct relation to the situation at hand (therefore, if it turns out to be incorrect, no one can accuse him of providing a wrong answer because, hey, he was just talking to himself! :lol: )
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby NileCat » Fri 09.11.2009 12:56 pm

I agree with keatonatron. :lol:

For your information, meaning-wise, it could be interpreted as follows.
" 太田先生はいつも正しい設計をするからなぁ"(何か正当な理由があるのだろう)or
" 太田先生はいつも変な設計をするからなぁ" (誰にも理由はわからないだろう)
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby Frobnitz » Fri 09.11.2009 9:39 pm

Ooh; someone erased my message and inserted their reply under my username. I assume it was an admin; I'd suggest creating a separate post to reply next time instead.

Most of my message is retained in NileCat's reply; I'll reiterate my thanks to anyone who's helped (and that, while I appreciate the effort, I think everyone already knows about the WWWJDIC).
Last edited by Frobnitz on Fri 09.11.2009 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby NileCat » Fri 09.11.2009 11:22 pm

Frobnitz wrote:As for the "sono tsudo" phrase - aha, could it mean "I hope we can fill it up each time we use it (because the tank is so big we might not be able to do so)"?

Sorry but I'm not sure. I can't analyze nuance in English. :oops:
その都度補充すりゃいいのに。なんのために、こんな容量積みやがんだ

What he is saying/implying is,
"おれの意見としては、そのvehide(船)が、点検のためにここ(lab? factory?)へ戻ってくる時に(毎回)、ついでに、燃料を入れればいいだけだと思う。(その方が合理的だと思う) にもかかわらず、なんのためにこれほど多量の燃料を搭載する必要があるのか、おれにはまったく理解できない。(だから、馬鹿げていると思うぜ)".
Last edited by NileCat on Fri 09.11.2009 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby Frobnitz » Fri 09.11.2009 11:35 pm

NileCat wrote:"おれの意見としては、そのvehide(船)が、点検のためにここ(lab? factory?)へ戻ってくる度に(毎回)、ついでに、燃料を入れればいいだけだと思う。(その方が合理的だと思う) にもかかわらず、なんのためにこれほど多量の燃料を搭載する必要があるのか、おれにはまったく理解できない。(だから、馬鹿げていると思うぜ)".


Thank you. I should make two notes:

1. The ship is still being built; it's not complete yet. Also, while the ship will be used many times, there is supposed to be only one test, not a series of tests. This did lead to my initial confusion over the usage of "sono tsudo".

2. As stated in previous posts, the "-ba ii noni" has a nuance of objection - that something that should be done is not being done. The speaker cannot, though, object to the tank not being filled "every time". The vehicle isn't complete - the tank has never been filled. Could the objection, then, stem from the possibility of not being able to fill the tank in the future for each trip simply because the tank is so big? Does the grammar simply not support that reading?

Thanks to everyone for their patience.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby NileCat » Sat 09.12.2009 12:53 am

About the tense.
In Japanese, you can read this sentence in both ways; The ship is still being built or It has already been completed. It makes no difference in this sentence structure. But in the context, it is obvious, isn't it? Well...it's a kind of subjunctive mood.
(EDIT: Or you can think like this, "the schematics have already existed", if you do want to define the tense in English way.)

About "sono tsudo" problem.
If my understanding is right, it just sounds a contradiction.
"Sono-tsudo" means "every time" or "every time when it is needed". It is always used when you want to mention something happens multiple times. Since the "only one test" thing is not described here, nobody would read this Japanese sentence as that it mentions "only one test".

About "whether this guy thinks that he will be able to fill the tank technically in the future if he is forced to do so, or not".
You're right. He might be implying as you said. But it highly depends on the context. I only showed a likely interpretation.

Do you think I understand you correctly? I'm not sure. :)
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby keatonatron » Sat 09.12.2009 1:51 am

Frobnitz wrote:Ooh; someone erased my message and inserted their reply under my username. I assume it was an admin; I'd suggest creating a separate post to reply next time instead.


Us admins get an "edit" button near the "quote" button, and some people accidentally click the wrong one and don't realize until it's too late. We've been working on a roll-back feature for when this happens, but unfortunately we haven't come up with anything yet.

(By the way, it wasn't me!)

Frobnitz wrote:1. The ship is still being built; it's not complete yet. Also, while the ship will be used many times, there is supposed to be only one test, not a series of tests. This did lead to my initial confusion over the usage of "sono tsudo".


Imagine a car that is still on the assembly line, with a full tank of gas.
"That's funny, you should only fill it up whenever you're ready to go. I can understand putting in a little for testing purposes, but why is there so much??"

This その都度 doesn't necessarily mean that there will be many times, it just means it should happen "each time"... even if the total number of times is only 1 :wink: Plus, how can the character be so sure there are not multiple times? What if the test fails and has to be done again? (speaking grammatically, not story-wise)

2. As stated in previous posts, the "-ba ii noni" has a nuance of objection - that something that should be done is not being done. The speaker cannot, though, object to the tank not being filled "every time". The vehicle isn't complete - the tank has never been filled. Could the objection, then, stem from the possibility of not being able to fill the tank in the future for each trip simply because the tank is so big? Does the grammar simply not support that reading?


The tank is full, which suggests it was meant to go on many trips (or one long trip) before coming back to refuel. The character is saying that [at this stage] you should only put in as much as you are going to use right away. That is the logical idea (what if there is an explosion? What if you have to change something in the tank? At this point in time, having only as much as needed is the best!), which is why it's strange that there is so much already in there.

The "objection" is that someone filled the tank (i.e. prepared it for a long journey) when they should have only put in enough for a short journey (i.e. a test).
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby inuinu » Sat 09.12.2009 6:56 am

詳しい文脈なしでは確かなことは言えませんが、
私が想像した文意はおそらく以下のようなものだと思います。↓


この船が完成して航行するようになった場合、
その機能維持のためには、我々がいるここのような整備可能な場所に寄航して
点検をしてからまた旅立つという航行パターンになるだろう。
その点検のついでに、燃料の補充もすればいい。

それなのに、どこかに寄航することをを考えていないかのような
超長距離航行が可能な容量の燃料タンクを搭載させる
という設計をするのは、なんのためなのか意図がわからない。

-------
カーレースで例えるとわかりやすいかな。
コースを100周するレースだとして、
40周でタイヤが磨耗して劣化するからピットインを2回はしなければ完走できないという状況。
それなら100周分の燃料を入れられるタンクをつけた車を設計する人はいないでしょう。
それなのにそういう車を作っているのを見て、不思議がっている
という場面だと思います。
tasukeru kotoga dekiru nara
tasuketai to omou.
dakedo eigo ha nigate.
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby NileCat » Sat 09.12.2009 8:12 am

こんばんは、inuinuさん。
私もほぼ同様に思いました。これは解釈論の要素が大きいですよね。ふと口をついて出た会話文ですから。

1)生前の太田さんがどのような人であり、どのように評価されていたか、
2)この本の著者にはわかっていて、この発言者がまだ知らない事実は何か。

この二点がわからないことには、なんともはや。またこれが「回天」の話か「SF的深海探索」の話かによっても、私自身の受ける印象は変わってくるように思います。
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Re: 「その都度」,「 しなぁ」

Postby Frobnitz » Wed 09.16.2009 3:11 am

NileCat wrote:About "whether this guy thinks that he will be able to fill the tank technically in the future if he is forced to do so, or not".
You're right. He might be implying as you said. But it highly depends on the context. I only showed a likely interpretation.

Do you think I understand you correctly? I'm not sure. :)


Oh, yes, you did. Thank you again; your explanations clear up a lot.

Inuinu-san, gokansou o itadaki arigatou gozaimashita. :)
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