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不思議の国のアリス

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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Mon 10.19.2009 5:09 am

That makes sense, but it's an odd concept to me to think of those two different wordings as being equivalent ("no words appear" = "there were no words").
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby becki_kanou » Mon 10.19.2009 6:59 am

lonelytraveler8 wrote:That makes sense, but it's an odd concept to me to think of those two different wordings as being equivalent ("no words appear" = "there were no words").


Think of it like this: She's looking at the book over her sister's shoulder and the pages are turning and she keeps expecting some illustrations will appear, but no matter how many pages are turned, none appear, because there are no pictures in the book. (The sister was reading some kind of history textbook IIRC).
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.19.2009 10:21 am

lonelytraveler8 wrote:That makes sense, but it's an odd concept to me to think of those two different wordings as being equivalent ("no words appear" = "there were no words").

Think of it like this: You are expected to absorb the "odd concept" by your teacher. That's the primary purpose of your class. As someone in this thread pointed out, your translating it is not important. Because the book was originally written in English.
I suppose I could stop asking so many questions.

No, I don't think so. You can ask as many questions as you like. :wink: We are always here to help you. But if you only want to know the meaning, you can take a look at the original book anytime. That's not a cheat, I believe. Well, to be honest, it seems to me that you are sometimes just playing a word-replacing game. But please don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming you or something. I'm just feeling guilty that I told you the meaning of some words in Japanese. 8)

<appear>
Origin: 1250–1300; ME ap(p)eren < AF, OF aper-, tonic s. of apare(i)r, apparoir < L appārēre be seen, appear, equiv. to ap- ap1 + pārēre be visible

Language is not an exchange of symbols. A word represents some idea.(Hmm...it doesn't sound make sense. :P But maybe you could understand what I'd like to say. Enjoy the difference between English and Japanese!)

EDITED
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.19.2009 5:02 pm

Her sister's book looked like this.
Image

Not like this. (with 挿絵 and せりふ)
Image
:D
(Everyone! Prepare for explaning the usage of "やっとこさ" and "~ないやね". I find it very challenging!)
Last edited by NileCat on Mon 10.19.2009 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Mon 10.19.2009 5:10 pm

Oh, well I understand what was meant lol. Equating appearing with seeing something was just a little odd, but you explained it pretty well.

I also don't mean to just try and replace words at all. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not misunderstanding any grammar and that I can learn to distinguish where one word ends and the next begins, because it's difficult for me at times. せりふ wasn't in my dictionary, so I'm glad you told me what that meant. でてこない also confused me a bit. From the way you explained its meaning, it sounds like just saying でない would have had the same meaning.

I have actually looked at the actual book to help me along, but I guess I'm being a little picky for my first piece of prose. I'm going to try to tackle a little bit more now. I'll be back if I run into any big problems.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.19.2009 5:34 pm

lonelytraveler8-san, may I add just one more thing?
The text you are using is, in fact, my favorite translation. It is full of collocuial and idiomatic expressions. Very colorful. But I can imagine it will confuse you many times. I personally assume it's more challenging than some philosophy books. So my advice is to take it easy with it. If you totally understood the grammar in even only the first chapter of this book, it would mean your Japanese is more advanced than your professor's! I mean it. 8)
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby Fillanzea » Mon 10.19.2009 5:36 pm

For what it's worth, I think Verb-te kuru and Verb-te iku constructions are some of the trickiest bits of grammar in Japanese.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.19.2009 5:56 pm

Fillanzea wrote:For what it's worth, I think Verb-te kuru and Verb-te iku constructions are some of the trickiest bits of grammar in Japanese.

Yeah, I totally agree with you! I had never met a non-native speaker who could cope with it before I came to this forum. Many people know about it as a knowledge, but the trick is mind-boggling.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Mon 10.19.2009 6:39 pm

That's really good to know! In that case, I'll take it easier and try less to understand every last thing. I'll still have questions, no doubt, but knowing what you've said takes some of the pressure off somehow.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Mon 10.19.2009 8:24 pm

I was thinking why I wanted to say something weird such as "a word-replacing game" or "challenging than philosophy books" in this thread.

This is my monology. I don't expect anyone would agree with me. Please ignore me.

I found the answer to my own question why I couldn't sleep.
That's because the grammar in this book is unusual.
As lonelytraveler8 thought, the expression "no words appear" is unnatural. becki's explanation is logical though, in the story, Alice only took a glance at the book. There is no reason to use "せりふがでてこない" instead of "せりふがない". Why the talented translator used the strange expression? --- Because Alice is only a little girl. Her grammar is not matured. The storyteller uses the expressions that only children are familiar with.
That explains a lot of things. Why she (the translator) used the difficult kanji 挿絵 and why she didn't use kanji for せりふ. Because Alice might find it interesting to read difficult kanji at times.
In the next paragraph, we’ll find "おっくう" and "やっとこさ". Why? Because they "sound" funny to children. There is no grammatical logic. The translator uses tons of colloquial tricks in her translation in order to entertain Alice (and us readers).
Have you ever read a book called "Flowers for Algernon"? A mentally challenged boy becomes a genius by taking a surgery. His grammar gradually changes in the story. Here in our Alice's story, the writing style keeps staying at "a lovely child level". But it doesn't mean it is easy. Smart children use amazingly colorful language. That's the charm of this book.
That's why I was uncomfortable when I tried to answer to the grammar questions of a highly diligent and intelligent member of the forum. For instance, "たいくつでたまらなくなってきてね", it's an unnatural sentence. And the conjunction "し" is used in poor taste. No educated grown-up use the word like this. But it sounds lively and sweet. Because it's children's privilege to use the words freely.
I love this translation. The quality is amazingly high. In a sense, it can be a very good learning material. But please note that it's a special writing style.

Sorry for wasting space.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Mon 10.19.2009 9:42 pm

You're too hard on yourself, NileCat. I enjoyed reading your opinion on the matter. I might talk to my teacher about finding an easier book to read, but I would very much like to continue working on this.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby NileCat » Tue 10.20.2009 8:18 am

lonelytraveler8 wrote:but I would very much like to continue working on this.

I'm very glad to hear you say that. The book is full of the beauty of Japanese language. But when it comes to "studying it", it's not a bed of roses.
I'm always happy to help you whenever you come across some "odd concept". :wink:
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 10.21.2009 4:48 pm

lonelytraveler8 wrote:You're too hard on yourself, NileCat. I enjoyed reading your opinion on the matter. I might talk to my teacher about finding an easier book to read, but I would very much like to continue working on this.


It's up to you; my personal opinion is that you would probably get a lot more benefit out of finishing Genki I and II, maybe working on your own with meetings with your teacher to practice or clarify things. If you use native materials too early, it takes you so long to go through very small amounts of Japanese, and you get overwhelmed with so many new grammatical patterns and words, that in the end you end up not learning as much as you would have from a textbook.
-Chris Kern
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Wed 10.21.2009 6:12 pm

That's true. I'm sort of juggling both at the moment, with a heavier emphasis on the textbooks. I've spent a good deal of my life teaching myself new things, and one of the greatest things I picked up is to not work on anything too long if it's really difficult and frustrating you. I'm not always perfect at following it, especially if I have a time constraint or am really working hard for a personal goal, but as far as my Japanese studying goes, I'd say I've been spending 90% of my time on Genki and the rest on this.
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Re: 不思議の国のアリス

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Wed 10.21.2009 6:26 pm

lonelytraveler8 wrote:but as far as my Japanese studying goes, I'd say I've been spending 90% of my time on Genki and the rest on this.


That sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully you will be able to reduce the textbook percentage as you learn more, and some day read a whole book. :)
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