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と in one sentence, らしく in another

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と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby space_bubble » Thu 10.08.2009 12:50 pm

     幕府はマクドナルドのことを聞いて驚いた。そして、九州の長崎からオランダ船で国外へ送り出すことに決定し、彼を長崎へ遅らせた。そのこる、多くのアメリカの捕鯨船が日本近海に現れるようになり、中には難破して日本に上陸する者もあった。また、イギリス船も現れ始めていた。そのころ幕府にはオランダ語のできる通訳はいたが、英語のできる通訳がいないため、大変不便に感じていた。そこで幕府は、オランダ語の通訳の中から十二人を選び、マクドナルドから英語を学ばせることにした。マクドナルドは、アメリカ人としては日本で始めての英語教師となり、この十二人の侍に英語を教えたが、翌1849年四月に長崎へやってきたアメリカの軍艦で北アメリカへ送り返された。彼は一生日本のことが忘れられなかったらしく、1894年にワシントン州の姪の家で病死した時、姪に「サヨナラ、マイ・ディア、サヨナラ」と言って死んだと言われている。

The preceding paragraph is from the middle of a 読み物 in the textbook I am using. The only questions I had were on the two sentences at the end highlighted in red. The rest is for context.

Question 1: As for the sentence [マクドナルドは、アメリカ人としては日本で始めての英語教師となり、この十二人の侍に英語を教えたが、翌1849年四月に長崎へやってきたアメリカの軍艦で北アメリカへ送り返された] I know I should probably know better than to second-guess particles, but I don't know why とfollows 英語教師.
Would [マクドナルドは、アメリカ人としては日本で始めての英語教師なり、この十二人の侍に英語を教えたが、翌1849年四月に長崎へやってきたアメリカの軍艦で北アメリカへ送り返された] mean the same thing, or something different?


Question 2: As for the sentence [彼は一生日本のことが忘れられなかったらしく、1894年にワシントン州の姪の家で病死した時、姪に「サヨナラ、マイ・ディア、サヨナラ」と言って死んだと言われている], is らしく a form of らしい (the らしい used in the sense of "to appear", or "to seem")?

Any clarifications and/or corrections will be appreciated.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby NocturnalOcean » Thu 10.08.2009 1:28 pm

と is very often used with なる in written Japanese, it equal to に. There might be some nuances, but the most important I think is that と is used in written Japanese.

らしく is らしい. You are probably used to らしくて for linking sentences, but again, this is a case of more written style, and it is normal to not use て but the stem. You see that in your first question as well, となり, is same as となって/になって.
Also here there are some nuances, but again I think at first it is good enough to know that らしく is a more written style than らしくて.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby NileCat » Thu 10.08.2009 2:06 pm

And I think "となる" contains somewhat "eventually" or "at last" feeling in it compared to "になる".
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby Fillanzea » Thu 10.08.2009 4:16 pm

I agree with the above posters about those sentences. I just wanted to add, regarding らしく , in Japanese you don't tend to report what people think and feel as if you have direct access to their feelings. Instead you have to qualify it, so in nonfiction it's very typical to say it seems that MacDonald never forgot Japan, rather than to just say straight-out that he never forgot Japan.
It's similar to how you can only use the -tai form for talking about yourself, not talking about other people.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby space_bubble » Thu 10.08.2009 10:40 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:と is very often used with なる in written Japanese, it equal to に. There might be some nuances, but the most important I think is that と is used in written Japanese.

らしく is らしい. You are probably used to らしくて for linking sentences, but again, this is a case of more written style, and it is normal to not use て but the stem. You see that in your first question as well, となり, is same as となって/になって.
Also here there are some nuances, but again I think at first it is good enough to know that らしく is a more written style than らしくて.

Now I know. I'll keep an eye out for となる in written Japanese, and what you pointed out about らしくas well. Thanks for the info.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby space_bubble » Thu 10.08.2009 10:47 pm

NileCat wrote:And I think "となる" contains somewhat "eventually" or "at last" feeling in it compared to "になる".

Oh, okay, I can see exactly what you mean now. Good point, and I can see now that would work real well with the sentence.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby magamo » Sat 10.31.2009 7:47 am

NileCat wrote:And I think "となる" contains somewhat "eventually" or "at last" feeling in it compared to "になる".

Far be it from me to correct a native speaker, but I can't say this is a sound explanation.

"と" in the sentence is a particle that refers to the result of an action, influence, etc., and in this case the result is 英語教師 and the action is なる. Certainly "に" also has a very similar usage, and there is a slight difference in nuance. But I don't think と gives a stronger sense of "eventually" and the like.

In general, に of this kind indicates that the attached noun is the result of the following verb, and usually the speaker is only focusing on the result. と in question also works in a similar way, but the focus is on "showing the result to the listener," i.e., you use と when you are like "Hey, this is the result!" while に is used when you simply put the result in a sentence.

For example, 彼は名前をXに改めた is just stating the fact that he changed his name to X while 彼は名前をXと改めた has a sense of "X. That's his new name."

So, マクドナルドは、アメリカ人としては日本で始めての英語教師となり、has kind of emphasis on "the first ever English teacher," and the writer thinks the fact that he started working as "an English teacher" is important. If you swap と with に, it would only state the fact that he started working as Japan's first English teacher from the US.

I'd love to know what NileCat and other native/near-native Japanese speakers think of these pairs:

とうとう最終日になった vs. とうとう最終日となった (I think the latter can have a "You know what? It's the final day." kind of nuance.)
一丸になって戦おう vs. 一丸となって戦おう (The latter is more dramatic because it's clearer that the speaker wants to encourage peers; と is there to emphasize that he wants to tell something to the listener.)
明日を決戦の日に決める vs. 明日を決戦の日と決める (The latter sounds like the speaker (or someone who determined D-day) is a determined person, doesn't it?)

By the way, this explanation and examples are taken from 明鏡国語辞典. It's a small J-J dictionary for native speakers, but it has tons of information about word usage, differences in nuance between synonyms, confusing kanji readings, and many other things learners often get tripped up by. You can also find explanations for other confusing と vs. に things such as "What's the difference between 彼女とキスとする and 彼女にキスをする?" "Is there a difference between ここで先生と会う and ここで先生に会う?" "Why can't I say 父は子に似ている while 父は子と似ている is ok??" and so on.

And, no. This is not viral marketing or anything.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.31.2009 11:22 am

magamoさん、TJPへようこそ。:)
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby magamo » Sat 10.31.2009 12:20 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:magamoさん、TJPへようこそ。:)

ご丁寧にありがとうございます。よろしくお願いします。

ところでオフトピックな話ですいませんが、Yudan Taitekiさんって某サイトで「源」のアバターの人、ですよね?
流石というか、なんというか、5000オーバーのポストカウントって凄まじいですね(笑)
さすがにそこまでTJPに貢献できるかどうかはわかりませんが、これからちょくちょくのぞきに来るつもりです。
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.31.2009 1:49 pm

magamo wrote:
Yudan Taiteki wrote:magamoさん、TJPへようこそ。:)

ご丁寧にありがとうございます。よろしくお願いします。

ところでオフトピックな話ですいませんが、Yudan Taitekiさんって某サイトで「源」のアバターの人、ですよね?


そうです。それは「源氏物語」の「源」です。

流石というか、なんというか、5000オーバーのポストカウントって凄まじいですね(笑)


すさまじいより情けないという気持ちはありますけどね。:)

さすがにそこまでTJPに貢献できるかどうかはわかりませんが、これからちょくちょくのぞきに来るつもりです。


よろしくおねがいします。
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby NileCat » Sat 10.31.2009 4:17 pm

magamo wrote:
NileCat wrote:And I think "となる" contains somewhat "eventually" or "at last" feeling in it compared to "になる".

Far be it from me to correct a native speaker, but I can't say this is a sound explanation.

"と" in the sentence is a particle that refers to the result of an action, influence, etc., and in this case the result is 英語教師 and the action is なる. Certainly "に" also has a very similar usage, and there is a slight difference in nuance. But I don't think と gives a stronger sense of "eventually" and the like.

蛹になって蝶となる

「~となる」has a nuance something related to time-line. Something happens at the end of the time-line is mentioned using "となる" instead of "になる".
In the example sentence,「マクドナルドは、アメリカ人としては日本で始めての英語教師となり」can be read as emphasis of "He eventually became the first English teacher". It's only a matter of interpretation. I think your explanation is plausible too, though.


とうとう最終日になった vs. とうとう最終日となった
Time-line, again. The former refers to the simple fact that it is the final day. The latter has the nuance that we finally face the day. (Of course the word とうとう has the meaning though)
(I don't understand properly the English nuance of "You know what?" though, it seems a bit different from our intention when we use this expression.)

一丸になって戦おう vs. 一丸となって戦おう
We usually prefer the latter. The former sounds a bit poor.
The important thing in the message is the effort to tie up. Not the act itself. And the effort takes some time.

明日を決戦の日に決める vs. 明日を決戦の日と決める
I agree with you. And it's different from "となる".
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sat 10.31.2009 4:47 pm

NileCat wrote:(I don't understand properly the English nuance of "You know what?" though, it seems a bit different from our intention when we use this expression.)


To me, "You know what?" has different meanings based on context and tone of voice. "You know what? This is the last day." That could mean that the person has just realized it's the last day. I think it often introduces known information and then offers some additional comment, like "You know what? This is the last day. We don't have to work this hard." or "You know what? We still have five hours left. We could finish the whole project today." But it can also just remark on new, surprising information (I guess I find that hard with the "this is the last day" because most of the time people would know that beforehand.)
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby magamo » Sat 10.31.2009 7:25 pm

@NileCat
Here's the entry for と in question in said dictionary:

5. 動作・作用の結果をそれと示す。「明日を決戦の日と決める」「一丸となって戦う」「子供を太郎と名付ける」「大会もいよいよ最終日となった」
[表現]「に」は結果(終着点)に、「と」は結果(内容)をそれと示すことに注目していう。「名前をOO党に/と改めた」

10 meanings of と as 格助詞 are listed, and it's the fifth one. I thought this explanation was spot on, and my intuition does support it. I think some usages of と as 接続助詞 have a sort of "time-line" sense as in 国境の長いトンネルを抜けると雪国であった。(by 川端康成) and 夏休みになると海に行ったものだった. But they're not related to に.

With that said, what native speakers have in their minds is always true in the sense that that's the definition of language. I don't like prescriptive grammar either, though I understand it's a useful tool to learn a language. If you still think the difference lies in "time-line," then probably that's the Japanese language you speak as a native speaker. No one can say it's wrong.

As for "You know what?", I think Yudan Taiteki already gave a solid explanation. But here is my understanding:

えーっとですね、私が"You know what?"を使って伝えたかった感覚ですが、一例をあげますと
「とうとう最終日となった」がたとえば小説中のモノローグに出てくる一文で、文脈は「ほんと、大会期間中は
いろいろなことがあったけど、とうとう最終日となった。彼らと真剣勝負を繰り広げるのは、もう今日が最後だ。」
といった感じです。既知の情報をぽんと出して、コメントを言い出しやすくする、といった感覚でしょうか。
Yudan Taitekiさんがおっしゃるように"You know what?"という言いだしは、ほかの用例も含めて基本的に
「情報を示す」ことに焦点がおかれる表現だと思います。私が上で引用した「結果(内容を)それと示すことに
注目していう。」という用法との類似点を感じたのは、恐らくこういったことから来るのだと思います。

この例だと「とうとう」が文中にあるので果たして「finally」的な雰囲気が「と」に由来するのかどうかは
わからないのですが、私個人としては引用した辞書がいうように、質問されていた「と」の用法は、情報の提示に
焦点があるように感じます。私見ではありますが、質問にある文章を読んでも
「マクドナルドさんはとーとー英語教師になった!」
「マクドナルドさんはとーとー英語教師となった!」あるいは
「日本にもとーとー英語教師が!」
という意図があるとはあまり思えませんでした。うーん、このあたりは個人差があるのかも知れませんね。
辞書よりも話者の直感の方が大事だと思いますし、他の人の意見も聞けると嬉しいです。
Last edited by magamo on Sat 10.31.2009 9:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby NileCat » Sat 10.31.2009 8:23 pm

枝葉末節ではありますが・・・(まあ、少数派の日本人として書いておきますね :wink:

ええと、この場合、マクドナルドさんは(遂には)日本初の英語教師となった、というニュアンスが含まれます。紆余曲折の末、最終的にその職に就くこと「と」なったが、1849年に帰国したわけです。これが時間軸です。
例文の文脈は、マクドナルドさんの生涯を時間軸を追って説明していますので、この場合、「時間軸の終着点」を明示するために「となる」が用いられているという解釈が一般的であろうと考えます。(唯一の理由とは申しません)
もちろん、仰るように、どちらかが正しくてどちらかが間違っているという問題ではありません。「両者のニュアンス」が汲み取れる文章です。しかし、この場合、その多少(バランス)は読み手の主観ではありますが、文法解釈としては両面を見る必要があると思った次第です。

「最終日となった」
magamoさんの仰るニュアンスはわかります。日常生活においては、それを「情報を示す」と言って差し支えないとも思います。しかしながら、それは、magamoさんがまさにお書きになったように「いろいろなことがあったけど、とうとう最終日となった」という時間経過を踏まえての用法です。そこには、初日・2日目・3日目・・・という時間が経過した上で遂には最後の日「と」なったという論理があります。「最終日になった」にはそれがありません。

「大辞林」では、格助詞「と」の定義として「動作・作用などの帰結・結果を表す」と書き表しています。
この「帰結」というのが、時間的なニュアンスを指しているわけです。

あはは・・・学校の勉強みたいになってしまいましたね。ちょっと疲れちゃった。 :D
今後ともよろしくお願いします!
(ちなみに、magamoさんの"First language" は日本語? 英語? 両方!?)
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Re: と in one sentence, らしく in another

Postby magamo » Sat 10.31.2009 11:10 pm

If you're following this thread but find Japanese posts difficult:

Reading NileCat's posts, it seems this と vs. に thing is so subtle different dictionaries explain it differently, and native speakers' intuitions are not consistent. Perhaps it's a regional thing. Or maybe that's because the younger generation speaks slightly different Japanese. I'm of the opinion that, as Meikyo Japanese Dictionary says, the difference is that "と" is used to present information the particle is attached to (Note: と has a lot of meanings, so this is not always the case.). NileCat thinks the と in question indicates a certain time-line sense, which Daijirin confirms.

Daijirin is a reliable J-J dictionary designed for adult native Japanese speakers. My intuition doesn't match its definition of と in question, but it's definitely a great monolingual dictionary, and I do recommend it to advanced Japanese learners.

I apologize if this discussion has caused confusion among some of the members of this forum. I think this topic is very interesting in that even popular J-J dictionaries for native speakers don't agree with each other. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of fluent Japanese speakers here, and would like to know what they think of the difference between と and に in this case.

It seems either is valid when it comes to this と vs. に explanations, but here is my "rebuttal" to the point NileCat made in his last post aka a shameless attempt to convert him:

Take this example 朝からずーっと、今日中に彼女に聞かなくちゃって思ってたんだけど、結局明日になっちゃった… Obviously this sentence has the time-line sense you're talking about. The speaker has been meaning to ask her, but he failed; morning, noon, evening, ...hey, it's too late! Do I ask her that tomorrow? This sentence doesn't use と, but apparently it carries the eventually-ish sense pretty well.

So, can I say, "朝からずーっと、今日中に彼女に聞かなくちゃって思ってたんだけど、結局明日となっちゃった…"? I'd say it's less frequent. 結局明日になる and 結局明日となる are both grammatical and sound natural. Is this because of the formality thing another poster mentioned? Maybe. But it seems to me that と is used more often in a formal situation because in formal speech/writing, the speaker/writer tends to focus on "bringing information" to the audience. My J-J dictionaries don't say と is more formal either.

I'm under the impression that the reason I wouldn't say 結局明日となっちゃった… as often in that context is that I'm feeling guilty about procrastination, i.e., I don't want to bring that up. Now if you say

今日中に聞かなくてはと思っていたが、結局明日となってしまった。

it sounds to me that you're more honest than a person who says

今日中に聞かなくてはと思っていたが、結局明日になってしまった。

because I think the former has more a "bringing this up" kind of nuance.

@NileCat

こちらこそよろしくお願いします。

問題の「と」と「に」ですが、どうも母語話者間でも意見が分かれるところのようですね。私の場合は、
「あぁぁ、聞かなきゃダメだったのに、ど、どうしよぅ…」といった気持ちの時は

朝からずーっと、今日中に彼女に聞かなくちゃって思ってたんだけど、結局明日になっちゃった…

とは言いますが、

朝からずーっと、今日中に彼女に聞かなくちゃって思ってたんだけど、結局明日となっちゃった…

とはあまり言わないですね。同様に、

今日中に聞かなくてはと思っていたが、結局明日となってしまった。

といった方が、私の耳には

今日中に聞かなくてはと思っていたが、結局明日になってしまった。

よりも実直な方に聞こえます。まぁ、これも「結局」の意味合いが強調されるからだと言われるとそうかも、としか
言えないのですが。考えすぎですかもしれません。

NileCat wrote:(ちなみに、magamoさんの"First language" は日本語? 英語? 両方!?)

遠い記憶ですが、This is a pen. が生まれてはじめて覚えた英文だったような気がします。

大人になってから日本語を勉強をはじめた知り合いのなかに、完全に母語話者と区別がつかない非母語話者が
いるのですが、そういう例をみていると「母語」の定義自体あまり意味がないのではないかと思ったりすることも
あります。ちなみに私は日本語の方が明らかに流暢です。より多くの母語話者がきてくれるといいですよね。
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