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English pet peeves

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Re: English pet peeves

Postby JaySee » Tue 11.03.2009 6:11 am

The "-ed" suffix in English is pronounced "-t" when it is preceded by a voiceless consonant. Most native speakers don't realise this due to it being spelled like -ed or -d in all cases.

shin1ro wrote:テフ
A typesetting program TeX for science papers etc. I believe if it is pronounced as in German (and Dutch?) "ch" sound, I strongly believe it should be katakana-ized to テッヘ.


Choosing フ to represent /x/ is not that uncommon though, for Dutch words in Japanese. One of Holland's bigger cities, Groningen, becomes フローニンゲン in Japanese. Then again Utrecht (another big city) becomes ユトレヒト, and van Gogh is ゴッホ, so I admit it does all seem kind of random.
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby chikara » Tue 11.03.2009 7:11 pm

phreadom wrote:It is here in America.

It's pronounced like Advanst.

I have never heard it pronounced that way in Australian English or English English.

That is interesting that American English uses "t" in place of "ed" in some cases yet say "spelled" instead of "spelt" and "learned" instead of "learnt".

JaySee wrote:The "-ed" suffix in English is pronounced "-t" when it is preceded by a voiceless consonant. Most native speakers don't realise this due to it being spelled like -ed or -d in all cases. ....

So most native English speakers, myself included, don't realise how to pronounce our own language?
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby phreadom » Tue 11.03.2009 8:06 pm

Are you SURE you pronounce "Advanced" with a D sound at the end?

I HIGHLY doubt that you do. Both my girlfriend and I physically have trouble forcing the D sound at the end even when really trying to intentionally. It sounds completely wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advanced

ad⋅vanced
/ædˈvænst, -ˈvɑnst/ [ad-vanst, -vahnst]


I think you're misunderstanding what's being said.

Also, if you go back and read again what Jaysee said, you'd see that they were specifically saying that it was only after VOICELESS consonants (like f, s, sh, and so forth) that the sound would be like a T sound.

Thus "ashed" would sound like "asht", and "fluffed" would sound like "flufft", because you wouldn't be voicing that final sound due to the unvoiced consonant preceding it. You'll notice that if you literally force yourself to voice the sound at the end to be a D sound instead of the T sound, it doesn't roll off the tongue and sounds wrong.

And beyond that only after VOICED consonants (like the N and L sounds you point out) would the sound be like a D sound.

Thus "spelled" would correctly have a D sound. And "learned" would have a D sound as well. (Although both of those words CAN be spelled AND said with the T sound, eg; "spelt" and "learnt", although these are both archaic.)

Make sense?

Now I wonder if there is more to this... for instance "violateD", "indebted"... maybe it's always D after a t as well? There are probably exceptions for certain letters etc... but none the less, I think Shin1ro's original point stands:

Shin1ro wrote:アドバンスド : advanced
Most Japanese people don't know -ed comes after an s sound is pronounced as a t sound.


Of course I can't vouch for the Japanese... so I can't comment on it beyond that.

chikara wrote:That is interesting that American English uses "t" in place of "ed" in some cases yet say "spelled" instead of "spelt" and "learned" instead of "learnt".


If anything it would be the other way around I think... maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying... but to me the surprise would seem to be that English spelled "advanced" with a D at the end and not a T, given the pronunciation. I think all the words are spelled with "ed" at the end because that's the standard suffix for past tense. The slight differences in pronunciation vary based on which letters it follows... voiced, voiceless, etc.

I suppose you could think of it similarly to how in Japanese the ん in しんぶん can sound like an M... or how in other words it can become nasalized to sound like NG, etc. Different pronunciations depending on the kana surrounding it.

I'm sure there's a better way to explain it, and some much better parallels in Japanese, but that was the example that came to mind. :)
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby chikara » Tue 11.03.2009 10:06 pm

phreadom wrote:Are you SURE you pronounce "Advanced" with a D sound at the end?

I HIGHLY doubt that you do. Both my girlfriend and I physically have trouble forcing the D sound at the end even when really trying to intentionally. It sounds completely wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/advanced
......

That just sounds so wrong to me but even the Macquarie Dictionary gives it as // (say uhd'vanst), // (say -'vahnst) so I have been saying and hearing it wrong all these decades :oops:
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby JaySee » Tue 11.03.2009 10:11 pm

chikara wrote:
JaySee wrote:The "-ed" suffix in English is pronounced "-t" when it is preceded by a voiceless consonant. Most native speakers don't realise this due to it being spelled like -ed or -d in all cases. ....

So most native English speakers, myself included, don't realise how to pronounce our own language?


Well, there's a reason for the linguistic maxim "never ask a native speaker (about the workings of his own language)" :wink:

For example, even though in Dutch all stops and fricatives in word-final position are consistently devoiced (i.e. the word 'heb' is pronounced 'hep', 'mond' is pronounced 'mont' etc.) there are plenty of people who claim to pronounce a written 'd' at the end of a word differently from a written 't'. They feel that there must be a difference in pronunciation if there's also a difference in writing, even though in reality there isn't one at all.

phreadom wrote:Now I wonder if there is more to this... for instance "violateD", "indebted"... maybe it's always D after a t as well? There are probably exceptions for certain letters etc...


In the case of 'violated' and 'indebted', the suffix isn't -d, but -ed (a vowel is inserted to keep the suffix audible). Since vowels are voiced per definition, so will the following dental sound be, and therefore in these cases the suffix is always pronounced '-ed', never '-et'.

It's actually quite like the pronunciation of the plural suffix, which is 's' after voiceless consonants ('cats'), 'z' after voiced consonants and vowels ('dogz', 'beez'), and 'ez' (never 'es') after 's' or 'z' with the added vowel to keep the suffix audible ('busez', 'rosez',).
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby shin1ro » Wed 11.04.2009 12:36 pm

JaySee wrote:The "-ed" suffix in English is pronounced "-t" when it is preceded by a voiceless consonant. Most native speakers don't realise this due to it being spelled like -ed or -d in all cases.

shin1ro wrote:テフ
A typesetting program TeX for science papers etc. I believe if it is pronounced as in German (and Dutch?) "ch" sound, I strongly believe it should be katakana-ized to テッヘ.


Choosing フ to represent /x/ is not that uncommon though, for Dutch words in Japanese. One of Holland's bigger cities, Groningen, becomes フローニンゲン in Japanese. Then again Utrecht (another big city) becomes ユトレヒト, and van Gogh is ゴッホ, so I admit it does all seem kind of random.


Thank you!!! I've been searching if there're any disproofs! :lol:
But I still stick to use へ in this case.
My arrogant complacent rule (derived from katakana) to transliterate to katakana is:
1. if /x/ sound appears at the end of a word
2. the vowel preceding to /x/ is applied to は行 to form the kataka at the end of the word.
3. put small ッ (to make the last syllable a little stressed...?)
Examples:
Mach マッハ, Bach バッハ, Gogh ゴッホ, Ludwig ルートウィッヒ/ルードウィッヒ,
Actually I've been felt shame I couldn't find any actual in-use ヘ example fit to the rules above.

...It's a shame I didn't realize Utrecht has a /x/ sound.
And now I think Utrecht as ユトレヒト sounds smooth and natural...

But now, I'd come across another rule :idea: :
4. If /x/ sound appears in the middle of a word, use ヒ (rather than フ or any other ハ行).
...Ah, NO! :twisted:
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This is already a popular katakana-ization and it sounds natural to me too probably because the /a/ sound before /x/.
The rule 4 can't be true! :o
...but I don't want to believe the katakana in /x/ sound is assigned totally random...

Anyway, especially Japanese フ sound is very different from English /hu/ or /hu:/ sound.
Japanese フ is described as /Φu/ (IIRC) and the breath goes through half closed lips with unvoiced wind noise.
Also ヒ is also quite different from /hi/ in English. In Japanese version, the sound is made with half closed mouth and the toungue and the roof makes the unvoiced wind noise.
(you may already know, though)

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Re: English pet peeves

Postby shin1ro » Wed 11.04.2009 12:53 pm

phreadom wrote:Make sense?

I totally agree with phreadom san about unvoiced + T sound.
It's very hard to pronounce unvoiced+D sound. I can't clearly pronounce the last D.

chikara wrote:That is interesting that American English uses "t" in place of "ed" in some cases yet say "spelled" instead of "spelt" and "learned" instead of "learnt".

I think voiced L + T is relatively easy to pronounce.

phreadom wrote:I suppose you could think of it similarly to how in Japanese the ん in しんぶん can sound like an M... or how in other words it can become nasalized to sound like NG, etc. Different pronunciations depending on the kana surrounding it.

That's RIGHT! :D I believe many Japanese thinks N, M and NG (or French nasal vowel+N sound may be closer) are all the same ん pronunciation. But it's not true from the Westerners' point of view. And after learning English, most Japanese students realize there're differnt んs in English... But so many Japanese still don't know English /n/ at the end of a word is a sound made with the toungue touched to the mouth roof and still pronounced as Japanese ん ng (or French nasal) sound.

phreadom wrote:I'm sure there's a better way to explain it, and some much better parallels in Japanese, but that was the example that came to mind. :)

No, no. It's cristal clear to me! :D

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Re: English pet peeves

Postby Infidel » Fri 11.06.2009 10:39 am

What an interesting thing. I never noticed I was pronouncing that D as a t.
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby AJBryant » Fri 11.06.2009 2:56 pm

Infidel wrote:What an interesting thing. I never noticed I was pronouncing that D as a t.



You never "noticeT" it? ;)
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby Infidel » Fri 11.06.2009 3:57 pm

:shock:

Double wow. But this reminds me how I read somewhere that some and thing apart are pronounced normal, but when slammed together into one word, for some reason a p sound slips in there, sompthing. I thought, no way! it's just two words together, so it should be the same just without the gap, but sure enough it is there. And it does make it easier to pronounce, so English has sound morphs too when some syllables get stuck together.
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby Embereyes » Sat 11.06.2010 12:32 pm

Here's a question for anyone:

When you are telling someone to put a letter in a word, would they say "put an h", or "put a h".

Technically, the h's phonetic name starts with a vowel, so you would say an h. But the written representation obviously does not start with a vowel.


I personally think an h works best, but what about you?
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby Hyperworm » Sat 11.06.2010 1:18 pm

I was just thinking about that the other day when I noticed I'd written "a honorific" in one of the topics here ^^; Then I looked down the topic and saw there were a couple other cases of the same thing...

I'd definitely tend to use "an".

As for why I wrote "a honorific" that time... maybe because I don't say the word 'honorific' often in real life, I connect with the written form more than the pronunciation? So I wasn't really thinking about the pronunciation when I typed the word ^^;
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby caladwenaeariel » Sat 11.06.2010 1:49 pm

Haha this is funny.

at least we're developing our own culture...?
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby phreadom » Sat 11.06.2010 9:13 pm

It's definitely "an", given the pronunciation, not the spelling. :colonthree:

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/Section/Why- ... 51541.html

Also, did anyone else notice that Embereyes was responding to a post from exactly one year earlier, to the very day? ;)
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Re: English pet peeves

Postby chikara » Sun 11.07.2010 10:28 pm

phreadom wrote:It's definitely "an", given the pronunciation, not the spelling. :colonthree: .....

Yes, it is based on the sound not the spelling.

Using an "a" before a word beginning with "h" could be an honest mistake :P

phreadom wrote:.... did anyone else notice that Embereyes was responding to a post from exactly one year earlier, to the very day? ;)

Spooky :mrgreen:
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