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Is this acceptable criticism?

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Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby coco » Thu 11.05.2009 10:50 pm

Quoted from this post.

IceCream wrote:I also speak with magamo on IRC sometimes, and not long ago we were talking about this forum. Actually, it's funny this topic happened. Because we were talking about the high quality of NileCat's responses!! lol.


Anyway, to NileCat, i think your responses are really great. I'm always impressed when anyone can explain their native language as well as you and magamo can. But, i kindof hope you don't always give textbookish examples too, BECAUSE there are so few native Japanese speakers on forums like this who can explain stuff!! yknow, anyone can go and look at a textbook, but it's not easy to find people who can tell you about and help with real japanese, with all its exceptions and idioms, and stuff.

Excuse me. Are you an acquaintance of NileCat-san?
i kindof hope you don't always give textbookish examples too,

Could you specify which posts contributed by NileCat-san you and Magamo think "Textbookish"?
If you won't able to exemplify some of them, your criticism is nothing less than a personal offense against him. 

---
Magamoさん、この件はもう反省していただいているので、蒸し返すつもりはありませんでしたが
TJPの外で、NileCatさんの投稿を批判するようなやりとりがあったのでしょうか。お答え願います。
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby lonelytraveler8 » Thu 11.05.2009 11:34 pm

i kindof hope you don't always give textbookish examples too,


I really don't want to get caught in the middle of anything, but I have to say that, to me, this isn't implying that NileCat actually gives examples like that, only that this person hopes it isn't true. Does that make sense?

Other than that clarification, I don't really want to be involved in any of this, unless I have the opportunity to prevent any big conflict between people.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby IceCream » Thu 11.05.2009 11:40 pm

Hi :)

No, i'm not an acquaintace of NileCatさん. I've been reading these forums for a while, but don't usually post here. I think, around the time magamo joined this forum, we were talking about the forum, and saying that NileCat explained things really well.

I've only read that other post tonight, and the quote magamo said, but i didn't read the link. But, please don't think i was trying to criticise NileCat in any way, because i wasn't! I said "i hope he doesn't" because, i think, if he did, its a loss to the forum.

Im a little tired right now, and have to sleep, but, please let me know if it would help if i wrote in japanese to clarify anything :)

EDIT: thanks lonelytravellor!
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby keatonatron » Fri 11.06.2009 2:04 am

coco wrote:
But, i kindof hope you don't always give textbookish examples too, BECAUSE there are so few native Japanese speakers on forums like this who can explain stuff!!



「今はいつもいい説明してますので、Textbookishな答えを出すようにならないように!」という意味ではないでしょうか?このポストを読んだらネガティブなことを一つも感じませんでした・・・
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby NileCat » Fri 11.06.2009 4:11 am

First of all, thank you coco-san for your kindness. I know you made this topic in order to stick up for me. I appreciate it.

Well, this whole thing was a good lesson for me, to be honest.
In any internet fora, we can't actually see people who we are talking with. The person could be a 70-year old professor or a 7-year old geek prodigy. God only knows. I realized that over a decade ago. (Well, strictly speaking, we didn't have internet yet at that time. It was called "personal computer communication".)

Since then, my policy has been like this; I assume the person I'm talking to as James Bond or Audrey Hepburn (who was my idol!). In my imagination, the core members of this forum are all Hollywood celebrities who are interested in Japanese language. Actually, it's possible, isn't it? lol
So, for me, it's technically impossible to get upset over a trivial thing with Audrey, because I love her!

Yeah, it may sound childish. But this "method" works for me.

Imagine that Audrey Hepburn is struggling with speaking Japanese. Sometimes she could be a princess, sometimes she could be a poor girl. And she posts some questions on this forum. Like "I don't understand the usage of this Japanese phrase."

Who cares if it's "textbook-ish" or "street slang" or "idiomatic expression"... I just do my best to help her by any means!


Just one more thing.
There are millions of people who are allergic to "textbooks" in any field. They always use the word "textbook-ish" in a negative meaning. Ok. No problem. I totally understand that. But in reality, in general, many of them are just longing to find an "ultimate textbook" that tells them the "truth". But what is the truth? We live to find the answer, don't we?

Anyway, I love you all.
Thank you.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby coco » Fri 11.06.2009 8:30 am

lonelytraveler8 さん、Keatさん、ご説明いただきありがとうございました。 :)

IceCream-san, I realize you don't have any intention to criticize NileCat-san.
But if you kindly give me some clues, native speakers would be able to learn from you.

As you know, Magamo-san mentioned, he withdrew this later though, that Textbookish Japanese was not preferable because it did a disservice to non-native speakers. According to your explanation, you and magamo-san had a conversation about the high quality of NileCat'-san's responses which were posted here. I interpreted it as meaning that you were impressed by NileCat-san's posts, even though it was Textbookish Japanese.

If so, since you say you hope that NileCatsan doesn't always give Textbookish examples, could you please tell me which parts made you feel "Textbookish"?

I'd like to tell you my interpretation about 教科書的な日本語, because we might not share the same idea about Textbookish Japanese.

In some cases, it can be an effective way to explain a specific topic with some example sentences composed of a limited grammars and smaller size of vocabulary that the poster already known.
It is harder to make these kind of conditional examples for a native speaker rather than normal text. Despite the effort, it's natural that these examples look an unsophisticated expression. I called it 教科書的な日本語.

For example,
子どものときは、よく外であそびました。また、いつもテレビゲームのことを考えていました。

I felt this was 教科書的な日本語.

Most adult Japanese don't speak like this, however, I don't think this kind of examples does a disservice to non-native speakers. I think this is a necessary step to learn languages for most people.

Does this apply to your textbookish example?

IceCream wrote: please let me know if it would help if i wrote in japanese to clarify anything :)

お申し出ありがとうございます。日本語で書いてくださるととても助かります。 :D
---
NileCatさん、投稿を読んでNileCatさんの懐の深さとユーモアのセンスに脱帽しました!
同時にこの一連のやりとりをみて、日本人の参加者が減らないことを願っています。
(普通は嫌気がさしますよね。 :mrgreen: でもNileCatさんの投稿でとても救われた思いがします。)

私は、NileCatさんの文章(日本語・英語とも)からもたくさん学ばせていただいているので
これからもよろしくお願いいたします。  :)
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby Mike Cash » Fri 11.06.2009 11:03 am

People who complain about "textbookish" examples/speech tend to be people who want to skip learning "textbookish" things and jump straight into highly colloquial/idiomatic speech, probably in a rush to be able to say things that their acquaintances learning textbookish stuff won't be able to understand, out of a desire to "one-up" them while not having to put forth any real effort.

Fortunately, those people tend to burn out and quietly go away relatively quickly.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby Astral Abraxas » Fri 11.06.2009 1:01 pm

My impression of people that complain about learning from textbooks is that they were unable to learn it easily so they gave up and now resort to memorizing "this is how you say this" and "that is how you say that" and not really understanding why you say it like that. They see it as "you say it like this because that's just the way it is". Or they kept trying to get ahead of themselves. They haven't gotten far enough in the textbooks to have the complete understanding of something and they try to write a descriptive paragraph using that kind of grammar and a native tells them there are a bunch of exceptions. Most of them aren't exceptions if any. It's just they haven't gotten far enough in the textbooks to understand why what they were trying to say doesn't work.

This is merely my impression. Disregard it.

Anyways,

IceCream, no one cares what you or Magamo done on any other forums or that you talk to him on the mic. What was the point of saying all that crap?
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby Txkun » Fri 11.06.2009 1:13 pm

NileCat wrote:Who cares if it's "textbook-ish" or "street slang" or "idiomatic expression"... I just do my best to help her by any means!

I like a lot your attitude, I think TJP and the world in general would be a lot better if everyone thought so.
Thanks for the support to give to poor learners :D

NileCat wrote:Just one more thing.
There are millions of people who are allergic to "textbooks" in any field. They always use the word "textbook-ish" in a negative meaning. Ok. No problem. I totally understand that. But in reality, in general, many of them are just longing to find an "ultimate textbook" that tells them the "truth". But what is the truth? We live to find the answer, don't we?

Anyway, I love you all.
Thank you.


I agree. And textbook or not, not everyone thinks in the same way. There isn't A way or THE way to study japanese or to live in general. Studying on books can be perfectly fine for someone and can be so boring that they quit language studying for others.

So, just respect others viewpoints and get the better of all the ways.
That's just IMHO.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby IceCream » Fri 11.06.2009 3:13 pm

Cocoさん、 i'l try to write in Japanese. But, i'l also put the english in. If i make any horrible errors in my japanese that are going to cause more confusion, please everyone, help me correct them!! よろしくお願いします!! I also can't write with the proper respect levels yet, so if i make mistakes with that, i'm really not meaning to be rude! :)

まず、
coco wrote:According to your explanation, you and magamo-san had a conversation about the high quality of NileCat'-san's responses which were posted here. I interpreted it as meaning that you were impressed by NileCat-san's posts, even though it was Textbookish Japanese.

If so, since you say you hope that NileCatsan doesn't always give Textbookish examples, could you please tell me which parts made you feel "Textbookish"?


実はさ、大体、このフォーラムで深さの読みではない。さらに私の日本語レベルはそんなに高くないの!そういうコメントができません。だからNileCatさんの例文には教科書的な日本語が作ったかどうか絶対に分かりません。
The truth is, generally i don't read this forum in depth. And my Japanese level isn't so high! So it wouldn't be possible for me to make that kind of comment. Therefore, whether NileCat makes textbookish sentences or not, i definately don't know.

っていうかさ、「NileCatさんの日本語は教科書的と思う」の意味っていうよりも「NileCatさんの日本語はいつも教科書的ならちょっとがっかりしたことになります」って言う意味なんだ。
"NileCat's Japanese is textbookish" wasn't what i meant. It was more like, "If NileCat does always use textbookish Japanese, i'd be a little disappointed."

だけどNileCatさんのポストを褒めてたってことがあったんです。鑑識眼のさえない私でも高級の説明したことがはっきり見える。話題は日本の出身人の説明したこととか。自国語の説明することがヤバイ難しいと思います。そういういい説明できる人は珍しいのですね。必ず、NileCatさんはそういう人。必ず、相当に尊敬したでしょう!
But, we were praising NileCats posts. Even someone like me can clearly see that he gives top class explanations. We were talking about Japanese people's explanations. Explaining your own language is incredibly difficult i think. People who can really explain it well are rare. NileCat san is one of those people. Definately, he deserves respect.

coco wrote:子どものときは、よく外であそびました。また、いつもテレビゲームのことを考えていました。

I felt this was 教科書的な日本語.

Most adult Japanese don't speak like this, however, I don't think this kind of examples does a disservice to non-native speakers. I think this is a necessary step to learn languages for most people.

coco wrote:Does this apply to your textbookish example?


えーと、日本語を勉強している人は違うレベルだってから相当に違う説明スタイルは必要なのだと思っています。
hmm, people studying japanese are of different levels so, correspondingly different styles of explanations are necessary i think.

だけど、大体、こういうフォーラムで日本人はまだ少ないと思う。自習人には教科書的な日本語より、自然な言い方のほうが難しいと思います。
But, generally, there aren't many Japanese people who visit these kinds of forums i think. To people who are teaching themselves, it's how to speak naturally that is the hardest thing i think.

例えば、「どういう事情で使っていますか?」とか「なんでこの表現がここにあるの?」とか「そういういってれば退屈・感じ悪い・面白いの?」など。日本人の自然な答えやニュアンスを説明してことはかけがえのないことです!!
For instance, "what kind of contexts would you use this in?" or "why is this expression used here?" or "if i say it like that, is it boring / rude / funny?". that kind of thing. A japanese person's natural answers and explanations of nuances is invaluable!!

その上、私は「言語は情報を伝えるのため」って絶対間違っている見解と確信している。言語は情報を伝えるばっかりではなく、人柄を伝えることとか感情を伝えることとかユーモアを伝えるのためでしょうか。
Moreover, i think that the idea that "language is for conveying information" is a totally mistaken view. It's not only for conveying information, but to express your personality, feelings, and sense of humour.

日本の大人らしくない表現で習うとどうしてましの?せっかく覚えるのにどうしても使いたくない。結局、自然な文章や不自然な文章や子供表現や大人表現や教科書文章、全部分かるが必要なのです。でも、なんでまずは教科書の?
Why is learning expressions that aren't what Japanese adults would say better? Even if you take the time to learn it, its not something you want to use. In the end, natural sentences, unnatural sentences, children's expressions, adult's expressions, and textbook sentences, all need to be understood. But, why textbook sentences first?

私も時々教科書を読むが、ぶっちゃけ退屈ですよ。慣用句や自然な文章はそれ比べて貴重と思います。どれもこれも文章を習うことはお菓子味のような感じます。
I also look at textbooks sometimes, but to tell the truth, they're boring. Idiomatic and natural sentences are so precious in comparison, i think. Each and every individual sentence i learn feels like eating a sweet.

私の文章の文法にはいろいろな間違ってがあるんです、また、ちゃんと人柄を伝えなっちゃって。でも、何とかします!文章をいちいち勉強してればゆっくり進んでもいいですね。
In my sentences theres tons of grammar errors. I also don't think i get my character across very well yet either. But, i'l do something about it! If i keep studying sentences one by one, its ok to slowly progress, isnt it?

That took me a few hours, so i'l have to finish in English, sorry!

"Obsession", "addiction", and words like that are used in english in a non literal way quite often. They're just used to express "did something a lot" in a more interesting and slightly funny way. It gives the sentence a more friendly tone than the more flat version of "i thought about video games a lot". But, you wouldn't say that if you were trying to be really polite.

Mike Cash: i totally disagree. I think it's far more often the fact that people don't get into studying real japanese, with the kind of things they really want to express that makes people burn out. It has nothing to do with wanting to "one-up" anyone. There's no reason you can't learn interesting sentences!! Why shouldn't you skip reading that textbook?? Nobody is forcing you!. i HATE being bored!! Don't you?

NileCat: haha. That Audrey Hepburn & James Bond thing is great!! I am definately going to do that in future.
Also, it makes me happy to be thought of like Audrey Hepburn :D
Last edited by IceCream on Fri 11.06.2009 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby IceCream » Fri 11.06.2009 3:17 pm

Astral abraxes: im not sure why you think its ok to be rude to everyone else either really. Actually, your one of the main people that made me write the post. Because you were totally misinterpreting what magamo was saying. If you'd read the thread i linked, you'd know that. Whatever. But, i am sorry if i've made things worse.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby leonl » Fri 11.06.2009 7:25 pm

Mike Cash: i totally disagree. I think it's far more often the fact that people don't get into studying real japanese, with the kind of things they really want to express that makes people burn out. It has nothing to do with wanting to "one-up" anyone. There's no reason you can't learn interesting sentences!! Why shouldn't you skip reading that textbook?? Nobody is forcing you!. i HATE being bored!! Don't you?


Though this isn't directed at me, and though I am still an upper beginner I would like to take a stab at this. This not about boring vs interesting, or textbook vs "real Japanpanese" its about doing the basics(textbook) before moving onto the more advance, i.e colloquialisms, anime, manga, novels, songs, dialects, etc. If you don't have a firm grasp of the basics you will never understand the advance, without every thing being explained to you. Before you walk you, crawl, etc. Whether you mine sentences or use a textbook or a cd course you start at the beginning and then move forward

Case and point I used to work at a video game store, where I was the senior shift leader and whenever I was off for the day or not closing the store I would always get calls from two of the people who worked there, who every time they called asked me the same questions about the deposit, where the closing forms are, how to print them, etc, and these people closed and worked quite frequently yet it was always the same questions. Now in this particular case this problem was due to the training that these individuals did not receive, not because they didn't want it but several external factors like incompetent and constantly changing managers as well as host of other factors prevented them from being properly trained. Point is without the basics you cant handle the advance. Because these co-workers of mine were never trained in some basic company procedures, they could not close the store without asking a ton of questions every-time they did it

In other words you can't learn those interesting sentences until you learn and master more basic ones first
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby coco » Fri 11.06.2009 8:18 pm

coco wrote:some example sentences composed of a limited grammars

なんでこんなことになるんだろう。文法以前に数も数えられない。 :mrgreen:

Mike Cash wrote:Fortunately, those people tend to burn out and quietly go away relatively quickly.

同感です。私もこの傾向を感じています。
----
IceCreamさん、ご返答ありがとうございます。
なるほど。
「母語話者によって書かれた教科書的な日本語は実際の日本語とは異なり、、学習者にとって悪影響を及ぼしかねない」という問題提起に対し、その真偽を確かめたかったのです。
もしこれが真実だとすれば、TJPの読者に多大な迷惑をかけている可能性がありますから。

けれど、なにが教科書的日本語であるかIceCreamさんは、厳密に把握しようとせずに「あまり教科書みたいなことばかり書かない方がいいと思うよ。だって教科書読むのって退屈じゃん」という程度なら意味が全然違います。

Thank you for your comment, IceCreamさん.
I wanted to ascertain if the following hypotheses is true or not.
Hypotheses: The textbookish Japanese, which is written by a native speaker, is not natural Japanese and it possibly has bad influence on learners.

If true, I should need to reflect myself because many of my posts might have adverse effects on leaders or members of TJP.

As far as I read your comment, you don't seem to comprehend what "textbookish" means in the certain content of magamo-san's post.
If you are claiming that "I don't want to read textbookish examples because it's just boring", you don't figure out why I got angry with magma-san's post.
--
追記
please everyone, help me correct them!! よろしくお願いします!!

私でよければ、後で投稿しますね。今は時間がないので後ほど。
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 11.06.2009 8:51 pm

To me, "textbookish" Japanese is not necessarily a bad thing. In my mind, textbook Japanese just means that you avoid slang or especially difficult casual speech/contractions, and limit your grammar to things that you think people still using textbooks would know. For instance, your last line 今は時間がないので後ほど, someone might instead choose to use 後で instead of 後ほど and put a verb there (後でします or whatever) because it might be easier for beginners to understand. So it's not necessarily unnatural Japanese, just slightly modified.

Now, if you use totally normal Japanese and don't try to make it "textbook" at all that's good too.
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Re: Is this acceptable criticism?

Postby Astral Abraxas » Fri 11.06.2009 8:56 pm

IceCream, I just went back and glanced at the topic. The more I read anything he says the more angry I get.

magamo wrote:I know that if you rely on grammar rules to create your own sentences when you speak, you'll come out sounding like Babel Fish at best.


I dare him to say my Japanese is like Babel Fish at best.

magamo wrote:Besides, there is no such thing as THE technique when it comes to language learning. So I'll focus on two things that I have never seen discussed anywhere.


Then he goes on like he knows THE technique and disses every other method that comes to mind. It makes me want to rip my hair out! Then you wonder why I get a little rude.

For example:

magamo wrote:But I think that even pseudo-theories and fake explanations can be fancy mnemonics to memorize sentences. In this sense, I think wrong grammar rules are ok as long as it helps you memorize sentences. Screwed up explanations are welcome as long as they help you remember sentences while you're absorbing a language through real stuff.


LOLOLOL...Yeah, you go ahead and make up your own crazy theories buddy. Not only did he just disagree with the purpose of grammar, he was a complete dick about it. How can you say that and not expect to piss off a few people?

You're just here to stick up for your buddy which is resulting in keeping a thread going that should have died a long time ago.

Honestly, I'm never sure what Magamo is saying because everything he does say seems to be slightly contradictory.

For example:

I also think that using grammar to interpret what is said/written only results in poor understanding.

Fortunately, we can get nice explanations of virtually anything if we look for them hard enough.


That's just one out of MANY.
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