Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Do you have a translation question?

? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Frobnitz » Tue 11.10.2009 2:31 pm

I've asked around about this passage, but its meaning remains not totally clear. (My engineering knowledge is limited, even though the story is in part fantasy and the "engineering" might very well be made-up.)

Two professors are looking over some electrical schematics a recently-deceased colleague has left behind for a vehicle's power system. B thinks that he has figured out how the system works and is explaining it to A.

A: ラインが多すぎる。なんでこんなに分けちまったんだ
B: ラインそれぞれの抵抗値を変えて切り替えさせる。
A: 動源が増えてる。

As I understand it now:

"There are too many [electrical] lines. Why were they divided [by the dead colleague, probably] like this?"
"It changes each line's resistance value, causing the connections to switch."
"Increasing the power."

1) Does the above bear any resemblance to the actual translation?

2) The usage of the verb "fueru" has caused some concern. I've been told that the last line means that the number of power sources increases, not the sheer amount of power provided, due to the nature of "fueru". While that is consistent with my familiarity with the verb, that wouldn't make sense within the story; a closed system can't just manufacture power sources out of thin air, after all. Then again, the line does speak of the "power source" ("dougen"), not the sheer power.

Thanks again for any help.
Frobnitz
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon 08.24.2009 10:41 pm
Native language: English

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby keatonatron » Tue 11.10.2009 9:11 pm

The second line is a little difficult I think. It might be more like "each line has a different amount of resistance, and you can change between them".

Also, the -ている form of 増える here doesn't necessarily mean "the power sources are increasing [right now]", it means that as a result of the design, the power sources have [been] increased.

Although, I'm a bit confused about this 動源. I know the word 電源, and it makes sense that 動源 would be something that supplies/creates movement, but I can't find it in any dictionaries or an explanation of it on the web. :?
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Frobnitz » Wed 11.11.2009 11:28 pm

Thanks very much for the input.

keatonatron wrote:Also, the -ている form of 増える here doesn't necessarily mean "the power sources are increasing [right now]", it means that as a result of the design, the power sources have [been] increased.


My reservation is this: The two people conversing haven't worked with or seen these schematics before, so they don't have the frame of reference to say that the power supply has been increased from previous iterations. They weren't familiar with the design while it was being put together; they just suddenly received the schematics after the death of their colleague and are trying to make sense of the finished (but unexplained) product. B thinks he's figured out how everyting works and is explaining his rationale to A. The conversation seems to be a line of thought, ping-ponged in the conversation: why are the electrical lines divided in this plan? / it changes the resistance values / therefore, that increases the power [supply]. The conversation continues with B saying:「おそらく[the dead colleague]はそのつもりでこの値は設定した。前の公式から逆算するなら...」. After the calculations are finished (offpage), A realizes that the system does work.

I'm just trying to understand what conclusions they're making and how they're getting from point 1 to point 2. It might be the equivalent of trying to understand technobabble, though.

keantonatron wrote:Although, I'm a bit confused about this 動源. I know the word 電源, and it makes sense that 動源 would be something that supplies/creates movement, but I can't find it in any dictionaries or an explanation of it on the web. :?


It indeed seems to be a made-up word, in line with the fantasy setting of the story. I have found a couple instances of it on the actual web - on the following page, say, with someone asking about the differences between electric- and gas-powered handguns:

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1414285819

I'm assuming from the kanji, as you mentioned, and the usage in both the story and elsewhere that it's meant as "power source" or "propulsion source", though I'd welcome any clarification.
Frobnitz
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon 08.24.2009 10:41 pm
Native language: English

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby magamo » Thu 11.12.2009 7:04 am

動源 isn't an oft-used word. Probably it's a fancy way to say 動力源 in a fiction novel and stuff or maybe a technical term.

As for translation of the sentences, it's almost impossible to guess the correct meanings without context. But probably it means something like:

ラインが多すぎる。なんでこんなに分けちまったんだ
What are all these divided (power/electrical) lines?

ラインそれぞれの抵抗値を変えて切り替えさせる。
I'll change the resistance value of each line and alter the power flow.

動源が増えてる。
It's getting more power/energy (sources).

[Edited out part of this paragraph. Sorry, Frobnitz.] I guess probably B changed the flow by altering resistance values so some lines became "fat" and usable, i.e., power/energy/whatever had been wasted in a circuit or something because lines had been divided too much to the extent that some of essential lines had gotten too little power. Since the number of usable power sources increased, the device (or vehicle) got more energy.
Last edited by magamo on Thu 11.12.2009 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.
User avatar
magamo
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat 10.31.2009 5:52 am
Native language: Newspeak

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Frobnitz » Thu 11.12.2009 11:25 am

magamo wrote:It's kind of silly to try to understand engineering in fantasy


Don't extend threads you find silly, friend.
Frobnitz
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon 08.24.2009 10:41 pm
Native language: English

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby magamo » Thu 11.12.2009 11:32 am

Frobnitz wrote:Don't extend threads you find silly, friend.

Sorry about that. I edited my post. I don't think this thread is silly at all. I wouldn't have posted on this thread if it had nothing to do with language though.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.
User avatar
magamo
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat 10.31.2009 5:52 am
Native language: Newspeak

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Frobnitz » Thu 11.12.2009 4:26 pm

Ahh, sorry about my tone. Your post was helpful, and I was remiss not to thank you; I appreciate the help and effort.
Frobnitz
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon 08.24.2009 10:41 pm
Native language: English

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby magamo » Thu 11.12.2009 4:56 pm

No worries. I'm glad it helped you.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.
User avatar
magamo
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat 10.31.2009 5:52 am
Native language: Newspeak

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby keatonatron » Fri 11.13.2009 11:38 am

Frobnitz wrote:My reservation is this: The two people conversing haven't worked with or seen these schematics before, so they don't have the frame of reference to say that the power supply has been increased from previous iterations.


I just want to say that I wasn't talking about comparing the schematics to past iterations... I meant in comparison to hypothetical schematics that don't have the extra power lines (or whatever).

As you may recall, the -ている form can also show a state of being, which is what is being used in this case. So, these schematics are in the state of being "extra powerful" because they have these extra power lines.

Although, Magamo's translation makes a lot more sense. Without context, I thought the 切り替えさせる was talking about the lines themselves, which made no sense to me.
User avatar
keatonatron
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat 02.04.2006 3:31 am
Location: Tokyo (Via Seattle)
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby OitaFish » Sat 11.14.2009 6:07 am

I think 切り替えさせる is talking about switches. They are talking about changing switches to change the amount of resistance to increase power.
User avatar
OitaFish
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed 01.30.2008 1:34 am
Location: Oita, Japan

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby shin1ro » Sat 11.14.2009 12:19 pm

As an electronics engineer, I think electric/electronics engineers normally use a word 配線 for electric/electronic lines instead of ライン. ライン in engineering field probably means a factory line or a manufacturing product line in a factory (工場のライン).

I agree with Oitafish. 切り替える means "to switch the resistance value".
Together with させる, I'd think it normally means "I'll have someone (an operator?) to change the resistance value of each line".

I also think 動源 seems to be a made-up word and probably intended to mean something similar to 電源 or 動力源 from the kanji meanings.

About 動力源 a power source and 電源 a power supply, 動力源/電源が増える doesn't mean the amount of supplying or consuming power (or current) increases. Instead, 電力 or パワー (normally 電流 current can be acceptable as well) が増える makes sense. So, I think 動力源/電源が増える has to mean a number of power sources "devices" increased (with a little hesitation....).
In addition, 増えている can mean not only "the 動源 is increasing" but "(I've found) the 動源 has increased compared to the past".

Anyway, in my personal impression, the author doesn't seem to be familiar with the wording in engineering "in Japan".

-shin1ro
英語がおかしければご指摘ください(日本語も...)。サンキュ〜 ;-)
User avatar
shin1ro
 
Posts: 496
Joined: Fri 07.21.2006 10:37 pm
Location: Shijonawate
Native language: Japanese
Gender: Male

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby magamo » Sat 11.14.2009 2:18 pm

@shin1ro

I don't know if the author really meant wiring (配線) by ライン, but as you yourself said, it's an unusual interpretation. I think ライン probably means "imaginary lines/paths that energy juice flows along," though we can't get the accurate translation without context.

As the OP said, this is in a fantasy work. I guess A didn't literally mean 配線が多すぎる, but rather "There are too many 'paths' from 'the source(s)' to a certain destination (or destinations) in the device," i.e., ライン just means "line," "path," "flow," or something along those lines (no pun intended).

So I think B changed the resistance values to alter ラインs (not wiring). Actually if ライン were 配線, which is very unusual, the sentence would sound redundant. If B changes them himself, ...それぞれの抵抗値を変える (or ...切り替える) would flow better. If B has another person change them, ...それぞれの抵抗値を変えさせる (or ...切り替えさせる) would work better.

If ライン actually means 配線, then B probably means 配線それぞれの抵抗値を変えて(この変更により、エネルギーの流れを)切り替えさせる。

日本語が流暢な方に対しては日本語でも返答することをお許し下さい。失礼にあたるのは重々承知ですが
こちらの掲示板では言語の壁により、誤解を招いている状況をたびたび目にします。細かなニュアンスまで配慮した
コミュニケーションがとれないことからくる、不必要な感情衝突をさけるためです。

さて「ライン」の件ですが、shin1roさんのおっしゃるとおり、これを「配線」や「導線」と読むのはすこし
ぎこちないと思います。むしろ素直に、「エネルギー(ここでは電流?)が通る道」程度のラフな意味合いにとるのが
自然ではないかと思います。でないと、「変えて切り替えさせる」という部分がとてもくどい表現に(私にはですが)
聞こえます。より素直に「抵抗値を変えちゃって、エネルギーの流れを切り替えよう」程度の意味合いにとるのは
どうでしょう。つまり、「させる」の対象は「新しい抵抗値」あるいは自分で改造するのでなければ「技官」です。

如何せんコンテクストが不足していますので、結論など出るはずもないのですが、質問された方の文章、特に2番目の
書き込みを読む限りでは、まわりに二人の会話を聞いている人間はいないように思いました。そもそも
会話というよりは映画などでよくある「半分会話・半分思考の説明」のシーンのようですし。(少なくとも
質問されている方の英文では、そのような説明をなさっているように私は思います。)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.
User avatar
magamo
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat 10.31.2009 5:52 am
Native language: Newspeak

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Astral Abraxas » Sun 11.15.2009 2:44 pm

keatonatron wrote:As you may recall, the -ている form can also show a state of being, which is what is being used in this case. So, these schematics are in the state of being "extra powerful" because they have these extra power lines.


Actually -ている always shows the state of being. いる is for living-beings and shows the state of being of living beings. If it's in present tense that means presently they exist in that state which gives the illusion of -ing a lot of the time. 勉強している = presently exist in the state of study

This is important to know because if you say "I'm entering the house" where are you? I imagine you're at the point where you're about to enter the house but you're not actually in it. If in Japanese you say 私は家に入っている you're actually inside the house. Two different things. If you want to say "I'm at the point where I'm about to enter the house" in Japanese it's 私は家に入るところです。 (lit: I'm at the place which is to enter the house) 私は家に入っている(lit: I entered the house and currently exist in that state)

私は日本語を勉強している = I study Japanese and presently exist in that state. (I'm studying Japanese)
私は日本語を勉強していた = I study Japanese and I existed in that state. (I was studying Japanese) [at some point in time]

Remember that いる is for living-beings. ある is used for inanimate things. That's why you can use ~てある to describe "a situation that has been brought about on purpose by somebody who remains unnamed in the sentence." (Genki 2, page 184). It's because you can't grammatically connect someone to the verb ある so you naturally have to omit that person from the sentence.

I realize that you know where you are in 私は家に入っている and could have translated it properly and even made sentences successfully like that. It's just you seem to have it memorized as some form of exception but it's another one of those things that just make sense in my opinion.
User avatar
Astral Abraxas
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed 07.04.2007 5:24 am

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Sun 11.15.2009 4:06 pm

Astral Abraxas wrote:Remember that いる is for living-beings. ある is used for inanimate things.


ドアが閉まっている is perfectly fine; the auxiliary いる is not restricted to living things.
-Chris Kern
User avatar
Yudan Taiteki
 
Posts: 5609
Joined: Wed 11.01.2006 11:32 pm
Native language: English

Re: ? about passage concerning electrical schematic

Postby Astral Abraxas » Sun 11.15.2009 5:47 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:ドアが閉まっている is perfectly fine; the auxiliary いる is not restricted to living things.


Yes, and ある can be connected to animate things too. (something you'll notice in older writing especially)

1) This is incredibly off-topic.
2) I don't care enough to try to explain it.
3) I probably can't explain it even if I wanted to.

But, yeah that comment I said was mis-leading and it's a good thing you pointed it out.
User avatar
Astral Abraxas
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed 07.04.2007 5:24 am

Next

Return to Translation Questions or Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests