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Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

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Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby bobkat2769 » Sat 11.28.2009 1:48 pm

Hi there! =^.^=

I'm translating a short piece on the Zentradei characters and numerals from the Macross anime.

This text is actually pretty rare. You would think it would be in the big "Macross Perfect Memory" book, but it isn't.

The are only two places I've ever seen this text. One is in a little booklet that Imai included with some of the Zentradei models from the original run of their Macross models back in 82. That's the one I've scanned and attached. The second is in a little pocket book called "Macross Guide Book" by 小学館 (Shougakkan) on page 152. That version is all handwritten and much harder to read as the writing's pretty sloppy. =^.^=;;

Here's the orginal text (300 dpi greyscale - 600dpi color available if not clear enough):
Zentradei Characters & Numerals (grey 300).jpg
Zentradei Characters & Numerals (grey 300).jpg (190.6 KiB) Viewed 1152 times


Oh, for those that are interested, you can get a Zentradei TrueType font here:
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~ranko-a/zen ... oji_e.html

My translated text:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Axis Characters and Numerals

《Zentradei Language》Axis Characters
(Note taking style) & (Typeset style)
《Earth Language》 UN (Integrated) Characters

※ The writing of the Zentradei Family of languages has no fundamental distinction between uppercase and lowercase characters. To distinguish a character as uppercase the corresponding character should have an underline drawn under it. Example: M(see text...). Also, various symbols can be added under characters to assist pronunciation.

(Example: …and so forth, really easy.)
Pronunciation: (Larger/Louder) (Reduce/Lower) (Extend/Prolong) (Shorten) (Raise) (Lower)

● There’s no need for it to be considered an invitation to a terrible misunderstanding in thinking that this designates a one-to-one correspondence between the basic Zentradei language and English. In addition to punctuation marks and other things that decisively resemble English, you can be justified in utilizing symbols as they stand.

《Zentradei Numerals》《Arabic Numerals》
← Signifies the 2nd digit and beyond. It does not possess any meaning beyond that.

------------------------------------------------------

The paragraph with the "●" is the one I really had trouble with. This middle paragraph is so convoluted that I could be way off and have inverted a meaning somewhere. Hopefully someone here can make better sense of it than I can. =o.O=;;

The last paragraph I probably got right, but I'm not totally sure and could use confirmation.

If I made any other mistakes/misinterpretations and help and advice would be most appreciated.

On whatever I got wrong, it would be very helpful to me if someone could explain to me where I went wrong, and how, so I can learn something from this. =^.^=;;

Thanks much in advance,

BobKat =^.^=
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby Hyperworm » Sat 11.28.2009 3:31 pm

bobkat2769 wrote:Also, various symbols can be added above characters to assist pronunciation.
Careless ;)
bobkat2769 wrote:[enclosing_circle] ← Signifies 2 or more digits. It does not possess any meaning beyond that.
I guess the note is there to warn against writing numbers like 101 as
[tick+enclosing_circle][tick]
when it should be
[tick+enclosing_circle][circle][tick]
because the enclosing_circle has no place value.

The chart seems to indicate that 10 is written
[tick+enclosing_circle]
rather than
[tick+enclosing_circle][circle]...
I guess this is a special case? Or maybe the point of the note is to say that the "10" in the Arabic numerals row doesn't actually mean "10" but "a number beginning with 1 containing 2 or more digits", and [tick+enclosing_circle] should be always followed by [circle] to mean "10"? :| Seems unclear.

As for the ●'d paragraph.
基本的にゼントラーディ語においては英語と一対一の対応を考えてもさしてひどい誤解を招く事はないとされている。句読点その他も英語と極めてよく似ており、そのまま記号を利用してもさしつかえない。
"On a more fundamental level, concerning the Zentradei language itself, it is considered that it will not invite[/bring about, cause] a particularly large level of misunderstanding[/any particularly severe misunderstandings] even if you think of it[/the language] as having a one-to-one correspondence with English. Even commas and other symbols bear a strong resemblance to English, and it will not cause problems to simply use those symbols as they stand."

(I'm finding it a little difficult to make the distinction in the above text, but by "misunderstandings" it means "any misunderstandings that might arise from using English rather than Zentradei grammar will be minimal", and not "you will not be misunderstanding the concept much if you think of English and Zentradei as 1:1")

(...Not entirely sure I've parsed the role of 基本的に correctly in this sentence but I think it's a fair guess?)
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby So Just Throw A Chair At Me » Mon 11.30.2009 12:08 am

Awesome, now I can finally get "I love boobies" tattooed on my back in Zentradei.
nagero!................................... ソ
                       ウ
                       ソ
                   ソウソウ
                   ウ   !!
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby bobkat2769 » Thu 12.03.2009 5:07 pm

Hyperworm wrote:
bobkat2769 wrote:Also, various symbols can be added above characters to assist pronunciation.
Careless ;)

あら... =o.O=;;

Beyond careless. I can't believe I did that. And then missed it when I checked my translation again for errors the next day. But then again, I had been up nearly 24 hours when I first wrote that part. =^.^=;;

Thanks for the correction. I'll fix that now.

Hyperworm wrote:
bobkat2769 wrote:[enclosing_circle] ← Signifies 2 or more digits. It does not possess any meaning beyond that.
I guess the note is there to warn against writing numbers like 101 as
[tick+enclosing_circle][tick]
when it should be
[tick+enclosing_circle][circle][tick]
because the enclosing_circle has no place value.

The chart seems to indicate that 10 is written
[tick+enclosing_circle]
rather than
[tick+enclosing_circle][circle]...
I guess this is a special case? Or maybe the point of the note is to say that the "10" in the Arabic numerals row doesn't actually mean "10" but "a number beginning with 1 containing 2 or more digits", and [tick+enclosing_circle] should be always followed by [circle] to mean "10"? :| Seems unclear.


It is unclear. =%.%=;;

This convention also isn't always used. As near as I can figure it is standard practice to enclose the MSD and it is only used to signify the MSD of a multi-digit number.

In long numbers, like the serial numbers shown on the Zentradei ships and battlepods (these numbers are usually found in the midships section on both sides of the ships, and on the hip joints of battlepods) the enclosing circle on the MSD isn't used at all in these cases for some reason.

But, from what I've seen, the general practice seems to be that this convention is normally used with numbers from 2 to 5 digits. The serial numbers seem to be the only consistent exception. Maybe because they aren't really ordinal numbers since some of them start with leading zeroes?

I also don't remember ever seeing 20, 30, etc. indicated with a single digit. The trailing zeroes were always present the few times I saw numbers like that. I certainly think that an example of that sort of number should have been included in the examples at the end to clarify that point.

Hyperworm wrote:As for the ●'d paragraph.
基本的にゼントラーディ語においては英語と一対一の対応を考えてもさしてひどい誤解を招く事はないとされている。句読点その他も英語と極めてよく似ており、そのまま記号を利用してもさしつかえない。
"On a more fundamental level, concerning the Zentradei language itself, it is considered that it will not invite[/bring about, cause] a particularly large level of misunderstanding[/any particularly severe misunderstandings] even if you think of it[/the language] as having a one-to-one correspondence with English. Even commas and other symbols bear a strong resemblance to English, and it will not cause problems to simply use those symbols as they stand."

(I'm finding it a little difficult to make the distinction in the above text, but by "misunderstandings" it means "any misunderstandings that might arise from using English rather than Zentradei grammar will be minimal", and not "you will not be misunderstanding the concept much if you think of English and Zentradei as 1:1")

(...Not entirely sure I've parsed the role of 基本的に correctly in this sentence but I think it's a fair guess?)


You can see why I had so much trouble with that paragraph. The grammar in it is very confusing. =%.%=;;

It looks like I was on the right track. I wasn't totally sure due to the grammar. When I translated the paragraph I got the same meaning you did, but was having a hell of a time being sure I really had it right and even more trouble trying to parse it properly into English.

Your version (with notes) exactly matches what I had in my head and certainly expresses the meaning of that paragraph much better than I was able to manage.

Thanks much. Now I'm a very happy kitty. *=^.^=*

BobKat =^.^=
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby bobkat2769 » Thu 12.03.2009 5:38 pm

Hyperworm,

Your assistance was invaluable in helping me finish this translation. Thanks again.

This is what I finally came up with for my translation of that difficult paragraph. I think it accurately captures the meaning that was originally expressed. What do you think?

● On a more fundamental level, concerning the Zentradei language itself, it is considered that it will not bring about any particularly severe misunderstandings even if you think of it as having a one-to-one correspondence with English as any such misunderstandings that might arise from using English rather than Zentradei grammar will be minimal. Even commas and other symbols bear a strong resemblance to English, and it will not cause problems to simply use those symbols as they stand.

BobKat =^.^=
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby Hyperworm » Thu 12.03.2009 7:57 pm

In long numbers, like the serial numbers shown on the Zentradei ships and battlepods (these numbers are usually found in the midships section on both sides of the ships, and on the hip joints of battlepods) the enclosing circle on the MSD isn't used at all in these cases for some reason.
Perhaps because those are viewed as a series of single-digit numbers rather than one long multi-digit number? Like you wouldn't read your phone or credit card number as "1 billion, ..." but as a series of single digits.
Of course it could be just an oversight, but if it's consistently used in some places and consistently not used in others...
I know nothing about Macross, by the way. ^^;

As for the translation, I might have worked it to be a little less wordy (my original translation was perhaps overly literal for explanation purposes), but meaning-wise it looks fine, assuming I haven't messed up :lol:
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby bobkat2769 » Fri 12.04.2009 4:46 pm

Hyperworm wrote:
In long numbers, like the serial numbers shown on the Zentradei ships and battlepods (these numbers are usually found in the midships section on both sides of the ships, and on the hip joints of battlepods) the enclosing circle on the MSD isn't used at all in these cases for some reason.
Perhaps because those are viewed as a series of single-digit numbers rather than one long multi-digit number? Like you wouldn't read your phone or credit card number as "1 billion, ..." but as a series of single digits.

You've got the right idea. But its more like a character string similar to the "serial number" found on a piece of equipment as they are fixed length strings that contain both numbers and letters in different parts of the string. That is, they aren't normal numbers like counting or ordinal numbers.

But the shorter ones like the platoon or unit/division designations are a single letter followed by ordinal numbers. For example: T-25(th) platoon, I6(th) division.

Hyperworm wrote:Of course it could be just an oversight, but if it's consistently used in some places and consistently not used in others...

I'm pretty sure that it was intentional as they were pretty consistent about it in the series and all the artwork for the models.

Hyperworm wrote:I know nothing about Macross, by the way. ^^;

:wink:
Hyperworm wrote:As for the translation, I might have worked it to be a little less wordy (my original translation was perhaps overly literal for explanation purposes), but meaning-wise it looks fine, assuming I haven't messed up :lol:

Did you take a look at what I finally used for my translation of that difficult paragraph? I'd like to get your opinion on it... =?.?=

laterz,

BobKat
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby Hyperworm » Fri 12.04.2009 5:22 pm

That's the one I was talking about. ;) It took lots of its structure from my original translation and so is (likewise) a little wordy. Personally I'd avoid explicitly including sections that aren't in the original, too. For instance maybe just "On a more fundamental level, concerning the Zentradei language itself, it's generally held that one can assume a one-to-one correspondence with English without being particularly severely misunderstood." would do.

But this is getting into the area of personal translation style, which is kind of something I'd like to leave you to develop yourself, rather than forcing my opinions on you, which aren't all that great anyway (I usually tend too much on the verbose side myself >_>).
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Re: Macross Zentradei Character Guide - Translation (short)

Postby bobkat2769 » Fri 12.04.2009 9:34 pm

Hyperworm wrote:That's the one I was talking about. ;)

ああっ、恥ずかしい... 誤解した。今わかる。=^.^=;;

Hyperworm wrote:It took lots of its structure from my original translation and so is (likewise) a little wordy. Personally I'd avoid explicitly including sections that aren't in the original, too. For instance maybe just "On a more fundamental level, concerning the Zentradei language itself, it's generally held that one can assume a one-to-one correspondence with English without being particularly severely misunderstood." would do.

But this is getting into the area of personal translation style, which is kind of something I'd like to leave you to develop yourself, rather than forcing my opinions on you, which aren't all that great anyway (I usually tend too much on the verbose side myself >_>).


I tend to be more verbose on technical text but more terse with other things. It all depends on what I'm working on. I try to use the same style the original text is using as much as I can when translating something. But at the same time I also try to preserve as much of the original meaning with as much clarity as I can manage.

This was a rather difficult one in a few parts for me. It didn't help me much that it was written rather sloppily. More like notes to one's self which are to be cleaned up and clarified later rather than something intended for publication or general use. Which is why I tried so hard to clarify things I thought were too vague.

As to the translation I used in the end, since the two paragraphs you gave matched my mental map of the original paragraph almost exactly but expressed the concepts far better than I had been able to on my own, I used them as a guide and combined them into one paragraph that I hope expressed the rather complex concepts of the original text in English without leaving anything of importance out.

Basically, it was wordy because the original text was such. Also, I felt it important to not lose the nuances of the original text in the translation to English as they help clarify an otherwise vague paragraph.

I hope that made sense. I'm starting to feel like I'm over explaining a bit and starting to lecture. Sorry, force of habit from years of tutoring and training people. =^.^=;;

Again, your help was invaluable to me in getting this right. Thanks again. =^.^=

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