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Gender differences in spoken Japanese

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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby Harisenbon » Thu 02.04.2010 4:46 am

deelicious wrote:Dialect used in Tokyo area?


I would say less of a dialect and more of a contraction.
It's used all throughout Japan, and I think is considered standard japanese
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby deelicious » Thu 02.04.2010 4:53 am

Harisenbon wrote:
deelicious wrote:Dialect used in Tokyo area?


I would say less of a dialect and more of a contraction.
It's used all throughout Japan, and I think is considered standard japanese

So if it's standard Japanese, is it grammatically correct to say うまいじゃない when making the statement negative? It sounds a bit odd... maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby tōkai devotee » Thu 02.04.2010 5:15 am

Harisenbon wrote:
deelicious wrote:Dialect used in Tokyo area?


I would say less of a dialect and more of a contraction.
It's used all throughout Japan, and I think is considered standard japanese



Try telling that to the people who use Mikawa-ben!! They believe it belongs to them. But, now that I think about it, I have heard it used in other parts of Japan, eg Tokyo, Saitama, Yokohama etc. So perhaps it's just that it started as Mikawa-ben and then as people spread around the country, moved for work or married someone from elsewhere, then it's become widespread.

(That's just my theory :D )

EDIT: By the way うまいじゃない doesn't mean it's not delicious. That would be うまくない。
うまいじゃない is more like "Isn't it delicious?"
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby deelicious » Thu 02.04.2010 5:46 am

tokai devotee wrote:EDIT: By the way うまいじゃない doesn't mean it's not delicious. That would be うまくない。
うまいじゃない is more like "Isn't it delicious?"

Thanks a lot! So うまいじゃない is more like うまいでしょう and うまいですね? Hehe, I know a lot of questions but it's really interesting for me :D
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby spin13 » Thu 02.04.2010 10:07 am

deelicious wrote:
tokai devotee wrote:The じゃん was used a lot where I lived in Japan. It is dialect for ですね

Dialect used in Tokyo area?

じゃん is short for the rhetorical じゃない? While it may be similar to ね, it's not polite like ですね. I've been told it started in the Yokohama, Kanagawa area. Granted, most of the people telling me this were from that area, but I've never heard anybody dispute it (minus the above post about Mikawa). Since Yokohama doesn't really have its own dialect and the use of じゃん extends throughout Kanto and most of Japan, I would consider slang more than dialect.

My guess is that it comes from the classical verb of negation ぬ/ん. You can't technically say ではぬ (it would be ではあらぬ, though nobody says that either), but in most other cases ない and ぬ/ん are interchangeable hence じゃない→じゃん.

tokai devotee wrote:By the way うまいじゃない doesn't mean it's not delicious. That would be うまくない。

But sometimes うまくない? does mean うまいじゃい? According to this year's 現代用語基礎知識, this use of negatives to elicit agreement has become even more prevalent.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Thu 02.04.2010 12:39 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:Right, once you get into these casual speech features it's heavily dependent on individual person and place in Japan. The people I know use わ instead of ぞ as the assertive particle pretty much always.

(ぞ really is more of an emphatic particle than a "new information" one like よ, I think. There are a lot of times you can use よ that ぞ doesn't work.)



where I was, tohoku, the use of わ was very effeminate and ぞ was very masculine. Perhaps it is more dependant more on locale than any other thing. I heard more men use わ in Tokyo than I ever heard use it in the areas north and west of Sendai.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby becki_kanou » Thu 02.04.2010 11:17 pm

There are a few different わs. One is feminine (あら、素敵だわ!) and another one is Kansai-ben. (もうええわ)
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby ss » Thu 02.04.2010 11:45 pm

Deelicious wrote:
Hehe, I know a lot of questions but it's really interesting for me :D


私も!日本語を習うのは楽しいですね。 :wink:

Lately I picked up ほなね and そうどすか? I was like :think:
I asked my friends and then I learned that ほなね = またね、じゃね, そうどすか? = 京都弁 = ほんまでっか? = 大阪弁 = 本当ですか? :lol:
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Thu 02.04.2010 11:47 pm

becki_kanou wrote:There are a few different わs. One is feminine (あら、素敵だわ!) and another one is Kansai-ben. (もうええわ)


I don't think it's just Kansai-ben; it's used a lot by people I know who are from Tokyo as well.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby deelicious » Fri 02.05.2010 4:17 am

SS wrote:
Deelicious wrote:
Hehe, I know a lot of questions but it's really interesting for me :D

Lately I picked up ほなね and そうどすか? I was like :think:
I asked my friends and then I learned that ほなね = またね、じゃね, そうどすか? = 京都弁 = ほんまでっか? = 大阪弁 = 本当ですか? :lol:


:shock: I imagine it's quite confusing, hehe.
(I still have to start learning kanji. I only know a few like 大, 雨, which I picked up. I'm a total newbie. Maybe I should finally overcome my fear and start learning it :roll: )

Back on topic:
わたし or あたし? I tend to use あたし more (of course only in casual speech) because it's shorter. No one has ever complained, so... I don't really know if it's more the youth who use it.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby Yudan Taiteki » Fri 02.05.2010 8:35 am

This could once again depend on location in Japan, but no females that I know use あたし. They all say it's childish and a little old-fashioned.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby deelicious » Fri 02.05.2010 9:04 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:This could once again depend on location in Japan, but no females that I know use あたし. They all say it's childish and a little old-fashioned.


Hmm... I've heard it when I was in Tokyo, then again maybe I'm wrong. Hehe, must've embarrassed myself then :colonthree: Thanks!
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby two_heads_talking » Fri 02.05.2010 12:13 pm

Yudan Taiteki wrote:This could once again depend on location in Japan, but no females that I know use あたし. They all say it's childish and a little old-fashioned.


It could be, as you mentioned, age driven as well. This was quite awhile ago, but I do remember the teenage girls using atashi all the time. Then again, alot of people think Tohoku is a bit old-fashioned anyways.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby ss » Fri 02.05.2010 7:51 pm

Deelicious wrote:
:shock: I imagine it's quite confusing, hehe.
(I still have to start learning kanji. I only know a few like 大, 雨, which I picked up. I'm a total newbie. Maybe I should finally overcome my fear and start learning it :roll: )

Back on topic:
わたし or あたし? I tend to use あたし more (of course only in casual speech) because it's shorter. No one has ever complained, so... I don't really know if it's more the youth who use it.


あたし is shorter? how so? :P
I think it really doesn't matter which one you use, there are times when one would want to behave childishly or there could be some situation where you want to talk like a nerd, who cares?! In my conversational class, there were some fun stuff where we sometimes said "atashi", sometimes "watashi", sensei didn't pick on this particularly.

Fear kanji not. I think like many children, I hated hanzi when I was a kid too. Frankly, I can't think of any better ways to learn them other than keep writing and practicing. That's how we learned Chinese hanzi.

Many people recommended this website Coscom.co.jp. Have you heard of it before? They have audio and the vocabulary list on the right hand side. Give it a try and see if this help ease your fear to learn kanji. Someone gave me this link as well, I've not tried it myself, hopefully it helps you learn. In TJP chat, there is a Genki chat room for members to practise grammar and kanji, if you like to, feel free to drop by.
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Re: Gender differences in spoken Japanese

Postby spin13 » Sat 02.06.2010 3:33 am

Yudan Taiteki wrote:
becki_kanou wrote:There are a few different わs. One is feminine (あら、素敵だわ!) and another one is Kansai-ben. (もうええわ)

I don't think it's just Kansai-ben; it's used a lot by people I know who are from Tokyo as well.

The only men I know who use わ in Tokyo have lived in Kansai at one point or another.

deelicious wrote:わたし or あたし? I tend to use あたし more (of course only in casual speech) because it's shorter. No one has ever complained, so... I don't really know if it's more the youth who use it.

Yudan Taiteki wrote:This could once again depend on location in Japan, but no females that I know use あたし. They all say it's childish and a little old-fashioned.

I know women who feel the same, but also know women and girls of all ages who use it. あたし is also used by 落語家 and some older gentlemen from Tokyo's 下町. If you want a completely feminine first-person pronoun, go all out with あたい.
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