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because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

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because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby Hektor6766 » Wed 03.24.2010 4:07 am

Could someone tell me if any of these sentences are correct, or how it could be better stated?


それは法則で彼が食らい込かった。

そんな制御的法則は以て彼が食らい込かった。

法則は以だけに彼が食らい込かった。
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Wed 03.24.2010 6:31 pm

Hektor6766 wrote:Could someone tell me if any of these sentences are correct, or how it could be better stated?


それは法則で彼が食らい込かった。

そんな制御的法則は以て彼が食らい込かった。

法則は以だけに彼が食らい込かった。


I don't understand what 食らい込かった means.
You might want to add your original English sentence....
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby chikara » Wed 03.24.2010 10:08 pm

coco wrote:.... I don't understand what 食らい込かった means. ....

An incorrect conjugation of 食らい込む maybe? :?

I suspect Hektor6766-san is trying to say that "because of a (controlling) law a person was imprisoned".
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Wed 03.24.2010 10:38 pm

chikara wrote:... "because of a (controlling) law a person was imprisoned".

Chikaraさん、天才!! :D
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby Hektor6766 » Thu 03.25.2010 12:49 am

Sorry, I should have posted what I was going for-I'm gratified that your guesses were as close as they were.

"Because of this type of repressive law, he was imprisoned."

Maybe that last verb should be 食らい込いかった?

If that's not bad enough, I'd like some help with an ode I wrote to an old favorite manga/anime of mine:

櫻が壊れた時計の台過ぎにうずまく
てるてるぼーずを戯れる。
春の微風が瓦屋根透きもの忍び入ている
屋根裏で古い写真を持ち上げて。
一刻館が惨敗くなかった浪人と未亡人と
一言を耳打ち。


"Cherry blossoms swirl past the tower of the broken clock
to cavort with the rain-doll.
A breath of spring slips through the chinks in the roof-tiles and stirs an old photograph in the attic.
The house of an instant whispers a single word in the ears of the defeated ronin and the wife not-yet dead."
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby chikara » Thu 03.25.2010 2:02 am

Hektor6766 wrote:..... Maybe that last verb should be 食らい込いかった? ......

I'm not sure what particular verb conjugation/grammar point you are aiming for there.

The past plain form of 食らい込む is 食らい込んだ. 食らい込まなかった is the past negative plain form. Maybe you are getting confused with i-adjectives. :)

Hektor6766 wrote:..... "Because of this type of repressive law, he was imprisoned." ...

Maybe;

この種類の制御的法則だから彼が食らい込んだ

ie, [reason] から [result]

"type of ..." 種類の......

But I'm just a learner too. :think:
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Thu 03.25.2010 6:02 am

Hektor6766 wrote:Sorry, I should have posted what I was going for-I'm gratified that your guesses were as close as they were.

"Because of this type of repressive law, he was imprisoned."

Maybe that last verb should be 食らい込いかった?


This page might help you.

I am surprised by that fact that there are dictionaries which don't explain 食らい込む is a slang.

As Chikara-san said, 食らい込んだ is the past form of 食らい込む.

I think your English sentence would be translated something like;
この種の弾圧的な法律のせいで、彼は投獄された。

I think "Nのせい(せい=所為, generally ひらがな is used.)" would be the word you wanted to find.
 
WWWJDIC wrote:列車が止まったのは嵐のせいだった。 [T]
It was because of the storm that the trains the trains were halted.

祖父は年のせいで耳がよく聞こえない。 [T]
Because of his age, my grandfather doesn't hear well.


In general, Nのせい is used when the result is unfavorable.

I think the "Law" in your sentence is within the realm of legal issues, if so, it would be 法律, instead of 法則.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby chikara » Thu 03.25.2010 6:12 pm

ココさん、説明ありがとうございます。
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby Hektor6766 » Thu 03.25.2010 10:42 pm

coco-san, Thank you for your example. I noticed you dispensed with こんな/そんな for "kind; type", using a more explicit この種の...法律. That's rather liberating from the textbook formula. And I noticed the 的 wasn't enough to form the adjective, you included な. And my insertion of が is evidence of my particle-panic.

飲む、飲んだ
読む、読んだ
込む、込んだ
sheesh.
I'll start drilling those conjugations. I was thinking asobu-asobi, and why the negative, I don't know. Maybe in trying to fix an already incorrect root form.

I was relying on the JWPce dictionary, which, i believe is from the JDIC; no mention that 食らい込む is slang.

法律-I chose the other for a political flavor, but I see your point, yours is the better legalistic connotation.

のせい for an unfortunate result-thank you. Looking back on my attempts, I can't even find a causal particle. I noticed you used 投獄された. Would 投獄させられた be appropriate? Or would that work better with から, as chikara-san suggested?

Getting to a compositional level is going to be tough.

Thanks for the Weblio link, I've bookmarked it.
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Fri 03.26.2010 10:55 am

どういたしまして。 :)
Hektor6766 wrote: I noticed the 的 wasn't enough to form the adjective, you included な.

On this thread, we were talking about the same topic. I think we have tendency to omit な when the combined-word(?), which is mostly linked with 熟語, become widely recognized.
And my insertion of が is evidence of my particle-panic.

If you are talking about 彼投獄された v.s. 彼投獄された, it's an extremely difficult and complex topic. There are a lot of threads about this in this forums..  

飲む、飲んだ
読む、読んだ
込む、込んだ

You must have noticed that when you type a verb of correct conjugated form, your IME automatically shows correct Kanji. :wink:

I was relying on the JWPce dictionary, which, i believe is from the JDIC; no mention that 食らい込む is slang.

You are right. I also had checked 食らい込む on JDIC. However, I've found that 食らう has a note.
WWWJDIC wrote:食らう(P); 喰らう 【くらう】 (v5u,vt) (1) (vulg) to eat; to drink; (2) to receive (e.g. a blow);

And this example sentence probably tells you in what kind of mood that word is used.

Would 投獄させられた be appropriate?

Okay, could you please translate into English these sentences?
1) 泥棒は   私に  金庫の鍵を  開けさせた。
2) 私は    泥棒に 金庫の鍵を  開けさせられた。
3) その男は 刑事に 私を      逮捕させた。
4) 私は    刑事に その男を   逮捕させられた。 
5) 私は    刑事に          逮捕された。

Or would that work better with から, as chikara-san suggested?

This post written by Becki-san gives you a good explanation, I think.
その国の法律を犯した[から/ので]、彼は投獄された。 is fine.
--
Hektor6766さんは日本語を勉強し始めてからまだ6か月程度ですよね?
熱心[なので/だから]、すぐに上達すると思います。  :)
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby NocturnalOcean » Sat 03.27.2010 8:41 am

How about using より/よって?
I think it is more formal, or does it differ in meaning also?

彼は韓国の法律によって投獄された。
失敗は成功の元
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Sat 03.27.2010 8:14 pm

NocturnalOcean wrote:How about using より/よって?
I think it is more formal, or does it differ in meaning also?

彼は韓国の法律によって投獄された。

NocturnalOceanさん
ご指摘のとおり、「Nによって」「Nにより」が中立的な表現です。

・技術革新によって、携帯電話が急速に進化している。
・インターネットの普及により、既存メディアの収益は著しく低下した。
・本日予定されていた花火大会は、雨天により中止になりました。

「彼は韓国の法律によって投獄された」は、「彼は韓国の法律に基づいて投獄された」と解釈できます。ここでも話者は中立的な立場です。聞き手は「ああ、『彼』はきっと韓国で法律違反をしちゃったんだなぁ」と受け取ります。

今回の文例は、話者に憤りがあるように感じたんです。「彼」が収監される根拠となった法律を、話者が不当だと思っている--という表現だと私は解釈しました。
(「食らい込む」という表現にも引きずられたきらいはありますが……)

「によって/により」には「に基づいて」という意味合いがありますので、今回の文章で「によって/により」を使うと、because of というより based on のニュアンスになるのではないかと考えました。
He was imprisoned based on this type of repressive laws. (?)
それが弾圧的なものであったとしても、彼は法律に基づいて投獄されたのだ--という感情が話者にあったときの表現になってしまうのではないかな、と。
----
これも質問が来そうなので^^; 補足しておくと、
理由を表すときに「Nから」が使われる場合もあります。

・恐怖[から/で/によって/のため/のせいで]足が動かなくなった。
・タバコの不始末[から/で/によって/のせいで]火事になった。
・彼の発明[から/で/によって/×のせいで]産業が生まれた。

説明があったように、すべての名詞に理由説明として「から」を使えるわけではありません。
・雨[×から/で/? によって/のせいで]道路が濡れている。
・地震[×から/で/によって/のせいで]家が壊れた。

なぜなんだろう。 もうちょっと考えてみます。
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby Hektor6766 » Sat 03.27.2010 11:46 pm

ここさんの質問の答え。

泥棒は私に金庫の鍵をア開けさせた。
The thief forced me to open the lock of the vault.

私は泥棒に金庫の鍵を開けさせられた。
I was forced by the thief to unlock the vault.

その男は刑事に私を逮捕させた。
The man had the police detective arrest me.

私は刑事にその男を逮捕させられた。
The man was arrested by the police detective for me.

私は刑事に逮捕された。
I was arrested by the detective.

正しい答えがほしい。

ここさん、どもありがとうございます。 6か月ぐらい前に勉強始めった、仰る通りてすね。頑張ります。
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby coco » Sun 03.28.2010 6:03 am

Hektor6766 wrote:泥棒は私に金庫の鍵をア開けさせた。
The thief forced me to open the lock of the vault.

私は泥棒に金庫の鍵を開けさせられた。
I was forced by the thief to unlock the vault.

その男は刑事に私を逮捕させた。
The man had the police detective arrest me.

私は刑事に逮捕された。
I was arrested by the detective.

These all look fine to me. :)

1) A(=泥棒) は B (=私) に 金庫の鍵を 開け させた。
  The thief forced me to open the lock of the vault.
2) B(=私) は A(=泥棒) に 金庫の鍵を 開け させられた。
  I was forced by the thief to unlock the vault.

In the second sentence, a noun before に(=A=泥棒) is the mastermind(?) that forces someone (=B=私) to do something(鍵を開ける).

A はB に act させる。------------- A forces B to do something.
B はA に act させられる。 ------- B is forced by A to do something.

If so, in the sentence 4), who was forced to arrest the man and who was a mandator(?) ? 
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Re: because (by means ) of a partcular(type of)...

Postby Hektor6766 » Sun 03.28.2010 11:33 pm

coco-san wrote:

coco wrote:A はB に act させる。------------- A forces B to do something.
B はA に act させられる。 ------- B is forced by A to do something.

If so, in the sentence 4), who was forced to arrest the man and who was a mandator(?) ? 


Then I must be the agent acting upon someone/something:

The police detective made me arrest (him).

The detective had me file charges against the thief.
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