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新神

Do you have a translation question?

新神

Postby Minarai » Thu 04.01.2010 4:21 am

Greetings guys,

Well, this post is about a little translation question.
To say "new kami" do I have to say 新しい神 or is 新神 (shinkami) also understandable and correct ?

Owarimashita.Yoroshiku onegaishimasu.
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

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Re: 新神

Postby NileCat » Thu 04.01.2010 4:42 am

Hello Minarai!

新しい神 sounds more natural to me. But if you want to create an imaginary character in a story, for instance, you could "name" it as 新神.
If you just want to describe something like "they met a new God", "彼らは新しい神と出会った" would sound fine.

Hope it helps.
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Re: 新神

Postby Minarai » Thu 04.01.2010 4:59 am

That's great! Your reply is very helpful to me!
Thank you very much NileCat!

All the best,
Minarai
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Re: 新神

Postby AJBryant » Thu 04.01.2010 11:43 am

Minarai wrote:Greetings guys,

Well, this post is about a little translation question.
To say "new kami" do I have to say 新しい神 or is 新神 (shinkami) also understandable and correct ?



BTW, I would expect 新神 to be read as "shinjin" -- being one jukugo word, you seldom see such compounds made that mix on and kun yomi.
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Re: 新神

Postby NileCat » Thu 04.01.2010 3:30 pm

AJBryant wrote:BTW, I would expect 新神 to be read as "shinjin" -- being one jukugo word, you seldom see such compounds made that mix on and kun yomi.


Yes, that's true. I agree with you.
Or, I might read it "aragami", maybe.
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Re: 新神

Postby Minarai » Thu 04.01.2010 6:41 pm

Good evening,

well guys, to be honest, I have one more question now. In 心神 it appears again the word "Kami", but my question is : what does 心神 exactly mean? Is it pronounced "Shin shin" ?

By the way, I understand that a Jukugo seldom mixes on and kun yomi, but I wonder if I could read these kanji also as "Shin Kami" exceptionally.

If, as we said before, an imaginary character in a story could be "named" 新神 (Kanji read as Shin kami) , may I also pronounce 心神 as "Shin Kami" using on and kun yomi if necessary, as well as we did with 新神 ? .

Ps : Shin Kami would be a name for a karate shotokan association.
Hoping I'm not OT with this post,
Best regards.
Oooh it's always the same...c'mon Zenigata!Let me go, I'm just a gentleman!Good bye paparino!

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Re: 新神

Postby NileCat » Thu 04.01.2010 10:45 pm

Well... that's a difficult question, to be honest.
Because there is no "right answer" when it comes to names of people (or Gods). If it's your "creation", you can name it as you like. I mean the kanji doesn't necessarily match the read. However, if you expect the other people to read (pronounce) the kanji as you've decided, you have only two ways:
a) Avoid the "exceptional read" for the kanji.
b) Always use "furigana".

Do you know what I mean?
As AJBryant said, if you name it 新神, many would read it as "shinjin" or "aragami". That's what will happen. But if you don't care, it would be ok. There exist tons of names that no one can read correctly. And if it is used only in the books, you could use furigana, always.


The next question: what does 心神 exactly means?
Well... the word was coined, wasn't it? Only the creator can tell.
Of course I can suppose it like "God of the heart?" or "God in your heart?" .
And I would read (pronounce) it like "kokorogami"? "shin-shin"? "shinjin"? And I would wonder if it could be "kokokami"??? (A famous Japanese actor once named his daughter 心美 and the read was kokomi. Some people liked it but some didn't. Because it was...too exceptional.)

I know the idea of Kanji names might seem very complicated to you.
If you have any further question, feel free to post it.
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Re: 新神

Postby writebook » Thu 04.01.2010 11:09 pm

I've never seen the word 心神 before.
Do you mean 精神 (せいしん, mind)?

I don't know why, but the kanji 神 is used in a lot of things that have something to do with the mind. Like 神経 (しんけい、nerve).
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Re: 新神

Postby coco » Thu 04.01.2010 11:36 pm

Minarai wrote:well guys, to be honest, I have one more question now. In 心神 it appears again the word "Kami", but my question is : what does 心神 exactly mean? Is it pronounced "Shin shin" ?

As for a common noun 心神(しんしん),it is mostly used as sort of technical terms, like 心神耗弱 or 心神喪失. But if you pronounce it as "Shin-shin", it reminds us of 心身 rather than 心神.

By the way, I understand that a Jukugo seldom mixes on and kun yomi, but I wonder if I could read these kanji also as "Shin Kami" exceptionally.

I have read 新神 as "しんがみ/しんかみ" in your first post. Even if you didn't put Yomikata, I would have read so.

If, as we said before, an imaginary character in a story could be "named" 新神 (Kanji read as Shin kami) , may I also pronounce 心神 as "Shin Kami" using on and kun yomi if necessary, as well as we did with 新神 ? .


心神 as a character's name, I would read it as "Kokorogami" if there is no ruby.
Either way, you can apply any pronunciation for 心神,( e.g. しんかみ, しんじん, こころかむ,むねがみ or even アダム, サタン, whatever you like) because there are no pronunciation rules for a character's name.
NileCat wrote:b) Always use "furigana".

I think this is the best way. :)
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Re: 新神

Postby NileCat » Fri 04.02.2010 12:37 am

I kind of googled the word and found out an interesting example. 8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_ATD-X

It might be a good reference when you try to get the gist of the general perception of the Japanese names. They use the kanji name 心神 for this fighter aircraft, too. :)
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Re: 新神

Postby Minarai » Fri 04.02.2010 8:14 am

Thank you all!! Your replies are very helpful (as always) to me.

@ Writebook : I didn't mean 精神 but really 心神 :)

Ok, now things are cleaner than before.
I can choose any yomikata I want if this name is a creation of mine (and it is), although I cannot demand that everybody would read those kanji as I would expect. However, Furigana would be the best way to extinguish any kind of doubt about kanji 's yomikata.

This is because there are no pronunciation rules for names name (I've seen that link coco, thank you).
And 心美 read as kokomi is a good example to demonstrate what we have just said before (upper lines).

Great, everything works good. But...hmm... I'd have a new question at the moment, please excuse me :blush:
This time it is not about Yomikata but it's about meanings.

Can I translate 心神 (read as Shin kami) as something like " Spirit of the God" ?
I know 心 means "heart", but in this particular context (invented name, my own way of reading both kanji et cetera) , can I think Kokoro as "spirit" ?.

(My dictionary gives these definitions about kokoro : mind, heart, spirit).
Ex : 心神 = God of the spirit, spirit of God, God in your spirit ??

Thanks for reading my post one more time,
Have a nice day guys.
Last edited by Minarai on Fri 04.02.2010 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 新神

Postby NileCat » Fri 04.02.2010 9:01 am

Minarai wrote:Ok, now things are cleaner than before.
I can choose any yomikata I want if this name is a creation of mine (and it is), although I cannot demand that everybody would read those kanji as I would expect. However, Furigana would be the best way to extinguish any kind of doubt about kanji 's yomikata.

Sounds very clear to me too.

Can I translate 心神 (read as Shin kami) as something like " Spirit of the God" ?
I know 心 means "heart", but in this particular context (invented name, my own way of reading both kanji et cetera) , can I think Kokoro as "spirit" ?.

I don't think I'm the right person to answer the question because I don't know the English nuance.
But in Japanese, it seems to me that "心" modifies "神". The main noun seems "神".

In English; God of ~ / (adjective) + God
In Japanese; ~(の)神

e.g)
雷神 is "雷の神" → God of thunder (God who controls thunder)
女神 is "女の神" → female God (Goddess)

新神 sounds like 新しい神 → new God
心神 sounds like 心の神 → God of 心 / 心の God
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Re: 新神

Postby Minarai » Fri 04.02.2010 9:54 am

Oh, sorry there's a little mistake. I didn't mean 心神 as "God of (の) the Spirit" . I meant 心神 as "Divine ( =神=God ) Spirit" simply. Could it be if we consider English nuance?

Ps : Mata doumo arigatou Nilecat san.
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Re: 新神

Postby writebook » Sat 04.03.2010 1:37 am

If you want it to mean Heart of God, the order would be 神心. Although it would be hard to understand unless you put an explanation in your story.

Also, there's 聖霊(せいれい, Holy Spirit, translation for Holy Ghost in the Bible (not to be confused with 精霊 (せいれい, spirits in nature and faeries)))
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Re: 新神

Postby coco » Sat 04.03.2010 10:27 pm

Minarai wrote:Ps : Shin Kami would be a name for a karate shotokan Association.

After checking some pages of Shotokan association and Shotokan,
I could only find that shin-shin was used as 心身, like 心身一如, 心身統一.

It seems that the word 心神 is rather used in "kung fu" explanation.

A common saying concerning basic training in Chinese martial arts is as follows:
内外相合,外重手眼身法步,内修心神意气力。
Which can be translated as
Train both Internal and External. External training includes the hands, the eyes, the body and stances. Internal training includes the heart, the mind, the spirit and strength.
http://www.themartialartslibrary.com/historypages.pdf

Do you remember in which context 心神 was used?

As for 神, your definition of God (or Divine) might not be the same as 神 in Japanese definitions or Chinese's. My 漢和辞典 introduces Mencius' saying, as one of definitions of 神. (You can see about it on this page.)
(I am very surprised by the difference of the interpretations between the Japanese translated version and the English translation about this conversation!)
---
I am curious about whether the character, who addresses himself as "Divine Spirit", is sane or not. :P
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