『食べます』 から 『食べる』

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アシカス
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『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by アシカス » Wed 04.14.2010 5:29 am

Okay, so I've learnt what I know with only the ~ます form of things. Is there any way to change a verb from the ~ます form to the form that most of you guys use? Like, look at the last character and deduce it from that? Or is it something that you should learn at the same time as you learn the words?

Is there a trick to it, basically?
Thanks so much in advance!

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jimbreen
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by jimbreen » Wed 04.14.2010 5:52 am

アシカス wrote:Okay, so I've learnt what I know with only the ~ます form of things. Is there any way to change a verb from the ~ます form to the form that most of you guys use? Like, look at the last character and deduce it from that? Or is it something that you should learn at the same time as you learn the words?

Is there a trick to it, basically?
Thanks so much in advance!
You just learn it. No more difficult than getting "jump" from "jumped" or "run" from "running".

There are sites that can help. Go to http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi- ... dic.cgi?9T
and paste in 食べます. It will tell you the plain form of the verb.

Tables such as
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi- ... 9%A4%EB_v1
can help you check the patterns, but if you stick at it you won't need them for long.

Jim

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furrykef
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by furrykef » Wed 04.14.2010 7:48 am

It's important to note that there is often no way to get the plain form of the verb from the masu form alone, since there will be two possibilities. For example, できます could be either でく or できる. (As it happens, there is no verb でく, but the point is, you have no way of knowing that without looking it up.) Still, for any given masu verb, there are at most two forms you'll have to look up in the dictionary if you're not sure which is the right form.

If the word ends with "emasu", the rule is simple: replace "masu" with "ru". tabemasu -> taberu.

Otherwise, the rule is:
Form 1: Replace "imasu" with "u". arimasu -> aru; tachimasu -> tatsu; hanashimasu -> hanasu
Form 2: Replace "masu" with "ru". dekimasu -> dekiru

(There are two exceptions I can think of, though: the plain form of "shimasu", when it means "do", is "suru", and the plain form of "kimasu", when it means "come", is "kuru". These verbs have other irregularities as well.)

You won't know which rule to apply to -imasu verbs unless you already know the plain form, but you can just look up both possibilities. Usually it will be form 1, but there are still many verbs that use form 2.

If the "masu" is preceded by neither "e" or "i", then either it's already in the plain form or it's not a verb. (Or somebody typed it wrong. :P)

Note that these rules only result in the dictionary form for verbs you've already learned. If you encounter the word "hanasemasu", you might expect that it's the polite form of "hanaseru" -- and you would be right, but "hanaseru" isn't the dictionary form of that verb, it's "hanasu". ("Hanasu" means "speaks"; "hanaseru" changes the meaning to "can speak".)

- Kef
Last edited by furrykef on Thu 04.15.2010 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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squarezebra
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by squarezebra » Wed 04.14.2010 6:12 pm

If you are fortunate enough to have an ipod touch or an iphone you can buy an app called CodeFromTokyo which allows you to search via conjuagted verbs. For example, by searching for 食べます you'd get the entry for 食べる which is the dictionary form.
I'm not sure what other resources there are out there that have this function, but that particular dict has always served me really well.
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by Sairana » Thu 04.15.2010 2:53 am

squarezebra wrote: I'm not sure what other resources there are out there that have this function, but that particular dict has always served me really well.
It uses EDICT, too, btw. There's no benefit the program gives you besides being mobile and created specifically for the ipod. I don't doubt it's a useful tool, but it IS worth noting that the dictionary file is available -without- purchasing the app or an iPod.

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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by squarezebra » Thu 04.15.2010 8:00 am

It uses EDICT, too, btw. There's no benefit the program gives you besides being mobile and created specifically for the ipod. I don't doubt it's a useful tool, but it IS worth noting that the dictionary file is available -without- purchasing the app or an iPod.
:D but it's sooo shiny!!! You can even change the background colour! :whistle:
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アシカス
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by アシカス » Tue 04.20.2010 4:01 pm

Thanks for all the help! I'll try out the tables and see how it goes!

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Just_A_Shinigami
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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by Just_A_Shinigami » Tue 04.20.2010 10:46 pm

I found a website (here) talking about verb bases....For example the base 4 of 話す(hanasu) is 話せ(hanase), and if you add ~ば, it would become "if verb" 話せば(hanaseba).
Base 2 would be a noun by itself (話/hanashi), base 3 would be dictionary form, and so on.
Godan verbs have different verb bases from Ichidan verbs and irregular verbs, but they're almost the same.

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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by spin13 » Wed 04.21.2010 2:32 am

Just_A_Shinigami wrote:I found a website (here) talking about verb bases....For example the base 4 of 話す(hanasu) is 話せ(hanase), and if you add ~ば, it would become "if verb" 話せば(hanaseba).
Base 2 would be a noun by itself (話/hanashi), base 3 would be dictionary form, and so on.
Godan verbs have different verb bases from Ichidan verbs and irregular verbs, but they're almost the same.
I, for one, am not fond of the shortcuts and liberties grammars such as the quoted link take. If you are going to take the time to learn the bases and attach names to them, I think you are best off learning them exactly.

A more thorough examination of Japanese verb inflections and bases can be found in The Nihongo Resources Grammar Book. What it lacks in brevity it makes up for in precision.

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Re: 『食べます』 から 『食べる』

Post by furrykef » Wed 04.21.2010 10:30 pm

I generally wouldn't even bother with learning the different "stems", I just learn the complete suffixes... for instance, to make the potential form of "hanasu" I just think "hanas + eru", not "hanase + ru".
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