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~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

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~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

Postby sharon-ra » Sun 04.18.2010 12:42 pm

Hello there. I'm not really new to these forums but I am new to posting a topic ...to any forum. Here goes nothing.

I am a little unclear with the meaning of this sentence that I found here in the Kanzen Master Series Book for 2 kyuu Grammar. Page 78, item number 77, B section:

3) 酒の上でも、言ってはいけないことがある。

From what I've come up with on my own, I believe it means "Even under the influence of alcohol, there are things that just can't be said." I'm sure I'm pretty off on this but even still what puzzles me more is the definition of the B section.

その時、その場面、その条件の範囲で~だ、と言いたいときに使う。

I can't really make out a clear definition for this in my head even though I've tried. I've looked up each word that I didn't know and broke it down one by one, but I am stumped on my own. Maybe its because of the way its written, I am not too sure. Anyway, I don't know if this is the right way to ask for assistance but any help in understanding this piece of grammar would be appreciated and if I don't sound clear then I'll definitely try not to sound as stupid the next time around. :sweatdrop:
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Re: ~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

Postby kurisuto » Sun 04.18.2010 8:00 pm

Hi, sharon-ra ! Congrats on your first topic :)

It's hard for me to translate this definition in good English, but basically it says that you can use it to specify under what circumstances (time, situation or condition ; in this case, being drunk) the main clause (言ってはいけないことがある) applies. In a more concise way : "when/if X, Y", where Y stands for the main clause.

So your translation is pretty good !
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Re: ~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

Postby sharon-ra » Mon 04.19.2010 2:15 am

Hey! Thank you for the reply. I appreciate it so much. I did some more thinking and I think I realize why I am not really understanding the item so well.

I'll provide my own translation so that maybe I can some feedback and see where I'm getting this wrong at because I obviously don't quite understand this. Page 78, item 77's B section of Kanzen Master 2 Kyuu Grammar:

1)日本の会社で働く上で、注意しなければならないことは何でしょうか。

Hmm, I feel like this is saying, "When you want to work for a company in Japan, what sort of things should taken with caution?" Probably wrong.

2)法律の上では平等でも、現実には不平等なことがある。

Uh, "(There is) equality according to the law however, in reality there are inequalities." For me that's hard to translate, so I'm sorry about that one. :cry:

4)立春は暦の上での春です。
Gonna say, "February 4th (risshun) is Spring according to the calender?"

So, I feel like when I look at all of those, that each meaning is radically different from the regular old definition that they provide you with in the book. I just can't make real sense of this item in my head, you know? So I appreciate your reply, at least I got the the translation of the 3rd sentence. Some sort of small victory. Thanks so much. :)
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Re: ~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

Postby kurisuto » Mon 04.19.2010 9:15 am

1) Seems good, but you should try to stick closer to the original sentence (from a pragmatic point of view, your translation's fine, but here it doesn't say "if you want to work" ; it only says "when you work"). Also, 注意しなければならないこと would be closer to "things you should pay attention to" or "be careful of" (well, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that "what should be taken with caution" has a different nuance. If not, just don't pay attention to what I've just said ;)).

2) Again, your translation is good, but you missed some grammatical nuances : 平等 here is an adjective, and refers to the same thing in both clauses ; I have troubles translating it too (I'm pretty sure we don't say "un/equal things" in English ; I hope you understand what I mean), but here's a poor attempt : "Some things that are equal according to the law are in reality unequal".

4) First, risshun can both refer to the first day of Spring (or rather the first day of Spring as per the traditional calendar), or to a period of time beginning this day ; here it would rather be the latter. So I would translate it to "Risshun corresponds to Spring as defined by the calendar" (literally "Risshun is the calendar's Spring").


But contrary to what you seem to be thinking, it looks like you undestand how 上 is used. In all this instances, it serves to define a certain scope (範囲) : in 1), it's not about the things you should pay attention to in general, it's only about things you should pay attention to when working in a Japanese company ; in 2), it's not about things that are unequal in general, it's only about things that should be equal according to the law but that aren't so ; etc.
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Re: ~上で(は)/~上の/~上でも/~上での Question

Postby sharon-ra » Mon 04.19.2010 9:53 am

That totally helps me understand this a bit better. Thank you so much for the help you've given me. :D I really appreciate it.
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