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understanding a sentence

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understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Tue 04.20.2010 11:23 pm

ただいま!Tokaiさん、Cocoさん、どうもありがとう。
あのね。。質問があるんですけど。。。。 :sweatdrop:

This sentence is one of the questions from L2 paper.
The correct answer for this question as underlined.

ある国では働く意欲や能力がありながら、定職につけない者もいる
ながら = while, despite, in spite of, although
つけない者 = person (people) who can't get a job
定職に = steady job
も= too, also, either

This is how I understand it:
In certain country, there are people still can't get a steady job in spite of their strong-will and capable of working.

My questions:
1) Does this part 定職につけない者もいる refer back to 働く意欲や能力 (者)? or am I misreading it?
2) Does it make sense to say ある国では働く意欲や能力がありながら、定職につきたい者もいる
(In certain country, there are people willing and capable of working, they also wish to have a steady job. But then, I don't know why the ながら is used, if so.)


Thank you in advance.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby spin13 » Wed 04.21.2010 2:37 am

Hey Shirley,

1) Yes, the people with the skills and ambition are the very ones who cannot find a job. [働く意欲や能力がありながら、定職につけない] is all modifying 者.

2) No, it doesn't make sense with ながら.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Wed 04.21.2010 9:15 am

Thank you very much, Eric.
It takes a while for me to fully understand why つけない者もいる being the correct answer.
I'm working on the L1 <いろいろな意味> 問題, there are lots of tough nuts to crack. :think:
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby spin13 » Wed 04.21.2010 9:03 pm

SS wrote:Thank you very much, Eric.
It takes a while for me to fully understand why つけない者もいる being the correct answer.
I'm working on the L1 <いろいろな意味> 問題, there are lots of tough nuts to crack. :think:

You're welcome.

Without seeing the other choices the only answer I can give is, "because it makes sense." Just in case, it's 就く.

Good luck.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Thu 04.22.2010 6:22 am

Eric, thanks again. :)
Here are some other choices:
つくしかない者もいる
つきたい者もいる        
つかざるをえない者もいる
つけない者もいる        
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby spin13 » Thu 04.22.2010 8:59 pm

SS wrote:つくしかない者もいる
つきたい者もいる        
つかざるをえない者もいる
つけない者もいる

ながら is being used here to show a contrast. We have the verb ある and so it's natural to expect ない (or some negative) to come next. Even if what follows isn't grammatically opposite, the meaning should be.

Starting from a purely grammatical standpoint, つきたい isn't a negative and つかざるをえない is a double negative (= positive), so they are out. つくしかない is negative, but it's not negating the correct thing (i.e., the verb つく is still positive), so it is also out.

定職につけない, on the other hand, is grammatically negative and meaning-wise is in strong contrast to 意欲がある and 能力がある.

Does that help?
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Fri 04.23.2010 5:57 am

はい、エリックさんの説明をよく理解しています。 ほんとうに感謝の気持ちでいっぱいです。 :)
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby pmt7ar » Fri 04.23.2010 2:22 pm

I know two different uses for ながら,

One being "while", in matter of time, or simultaneous actions (~する間に, ~している時). The example that most books use is "私は音楽を聴きながら読書してた" (I was reading while listening to the music.)

The other is "while", in the meaning of "though", "although", "but". As fas I've always seen it, its followed with a negative sentence (not in the conjugation, but in the meaning, something pitiful, uhappy to say). Like the idiom "残念ながら + something bad"
It's similar as ~だけれども / ~しかし / ~だが.


ある国では働く意欲や能力がありながら、定職に________

If I see this I would expect something negative sentence, contrasting with the previous. Something that unfortunately goes against the natural course of it (if there is will and ability, you'd expect a high occupation rate).

*つくしかない者もいる
*つかざるをえない者もいる
Both means the same, "there are persons that had no choice but to get a job". It doesn't have sense as it doesn't contrast with the part before ながら.

*つきたい者もいる
Also doesn't make sense if there is this ながら. You already expect that if there is will and ability, people will want a steady job.

*つけない者もいる
This is the only one that makes sense. This is a negative sentence (also, negative verb), that contrast with the natural course of the previous. "Even if there is will and ability, there are people who can't get a steady job". There are people who do get it, but the sentence makes emphasis on the exception, on what it's unexpected (there are people who get job, and ALSO -hence the も- people who don't).
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Sat 04.24.2010 8:10 am

Hello pmt7ar, welcome to the board.
I don't know you but I appreciate you taking your time and effort to register in TJP and attend to my question, thanks.

I've finally understood why つけない者もいる being the right choice from Eric's explanation, I see the headache part to follow up with 定職に and with the nuance of ながら used there.
How about these sentences, do they make sense?

ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるにもかかわらず、定職につけない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるのに、定職につけない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がないのに、定職につきたい者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつくしかない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつかざるをえない者もいる。

As I said, I'm working on the L1 問題集, something like this :

空---他のことで頭がいっぱいで注意していないこと
1)今日は空模様は何だ可変な感じだ。
2)うわの空で歩いていると危ない。
3)昨日勉強した時は空で言える。
4)いつも空を飛びたいと思っている。

You have to choose the right one that matches the specific meaning as indicated. Imagine if one doesn't know "うわの空" is an idiom, how can one pick the right answer? It doesn't strike me as "absent-minded" in the first place. There are many いろいろな意味 like those in higher level quizzes, they are like little devils eyeing on you, but I believe one will become wiser and stronger each time you conquer them one by one.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby spin13 » Sat 04.24.2010 9:27 am

SS wrote:1. ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるにもかかわらず、定職につけない者もいる。
2. ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるのに、定職につけない者もいる。
3. ある国では、働く意欲や能力がないのに、定職につきたい者もいる。
4. ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつくしかない者もいる。
5. ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつかざるをえない者もいる。

1, 2, 4, and 5 all look OK to me. 5 seems like it would need some more context to make sense, though. 3 doesn't seem to make sense simply because 意欲がない and つきたい seem to be odds with each other.

SS wrote:空---他のことで頭がいっぱいで注意していないこと
1)今日は空模様は何だ可変な感じだ。
2)うわの空で歩いていると危ない。
3)昨日勉強した時は空で言える。
4)いつも空を飛びたいと思っている。

You have to choose the right one that matches the specific meaning as indicated. Imagine if one doesn't know "うわの空" is an idiom, how can one pick the right answer? It doesn't strike me as "absent-minded" in the first place. There are many いろいろな意味 like those in higher level quizzes, they are like little devils eyeing on you, but I believe one will become wiser and stronger each time you conquer them one by one.

1 and 4 are talking about something physical and thus are easy to eliminate. If you don't know the phrases うわの空 and 空で言える it gets a little trickier, but not impossible. Try replacing the word 空 with it's definition. 注意しないで歩いていると危ない makes sense, whereas 他のことで頭がいっぱいで注意していないで言える seems a less likely situation.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby pmt7ar » Sat 04.24.2010 11:40 am

SS wrote:ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるにもかかわらず、定職につけない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力があるのに、定職につけない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がないのに、定職につきたい者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつくしかない者もいる。
ある国では、働く意欲や能力がありながら、アルバイトにつかざるをえない者もいる。
Yes, 1,2,4,5 seems right. 4 and 5 are the same (Vしかない is the same Vざるをえない, if there is a difference in usage is very subtle). 1 and 2 are the same as ながら, but much clear (all implies that the following meaning is negative to the former).
The 3 is the one who doesn't ring. The latter is something that is normal and you expect giving the former, so のに is grammatically wrong there; or at least, I don't know a direct relation between having ability to work and wanting to work. Isolated, it doesn't have sense for the "there is no will"-"want to work". But if the context before says another relation, then it could be correct too.

SS wrote:空---他のことで頭がいっぱいで注意していないこと
1)今日は空模様は何だ可変な感じだ。
2)うわの空で歩いていると危ない。
3)昨日勉強した時は空で言える。
4)いつも空を飛びたいと思っている。

Certainly these things are confusing if you don't know idioms. First of all, you can discard the absolutely wrong. I didn't know what うわの空 means, but I would've done this: "Something similar to not being cautious because having other things in your head". (1)(4) not related at all, (3) not related, though there is another idiom there with 空. by discard, I would choose (2) and be confident with it -and then look at a dictionary-. Detecting errors is as valuable as knowing the correct answer.
Also, you could figure from "注意していない"->"危ない". None of the rest implies something that brings danger or that means being with full with other thoughts.
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Re: understanding a sentence

Postby ss » Sun 04.25.2010 8:25 pm

Thanks for analyzing what went wrong, I agree with the eliminations and detecting errors parts. It will certainly help with the comprehending process. Too many things to learn, I need to curl up with some good tea. :)
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