Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

View topic - するまじと

するまじと

Have a Question about some Grammar point? Share it with the world!

するまじと

Postby ss » Wed 04.28.2010 8:57 pm

コーチの援助を無駄にするまじと、苦戦の末、やっと勝った。

I'm completely ignorant about this するまじと. Does this grammar relate to まい? I can't parse the first part.

From dictionary, I actually found some examples of 無駄、like 時間の無駄(a waste of time), 時間を無駄にする (waste time), 今それを勉強しておくことは無駄にはなるまい (It proves useful someday studying this now), 無駄にする vs 無駄にするまじと, I really don't get it.

Thanks in advance.
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: するまじと

Postby writebook » Thu 04.29.2010 6:56 am

まい is a somewhat old word and まじ is a more archaic form of まい。まい and まじ can mean "shall not~" and expresses a strong will that you won't do something, or that something should not happen in a certain way. It can also express speculation that something will not happen.

Both of them are old, and used mostly in set expressions. For example, if you say 「負けるまい!」 you will sound like some samurai saying "I shall not be defeated!" instead of just saying "I won't lose." You might say it for fun if you want that effect. However, even in modern speech it's normal for someone to say 「彼は負けまいとがんばった」 (He tried hard, with the attitude of "I shall not lose"). I think it mostly gets used with と in modern speech.
writebook
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri 12.25.2009 3:17 pm
Native language: 日本語

Re: するまじと

Postby ss » Thu 04.29.2010 7:58 pm

writebookさん, thank you very much for your reply.

A non-native friend was trying to explain to me this 援助を無駄にするまじと with that example sentence, yet I still failed to grasp the whole concept. This part seemed to mean "didn't disappoint you (the coach, in this case). The whole sentence would be "They finally won the game after a tough fight, they didn't let him (the coach) down."

I was stuck on one 一級問題, I should have bookmarked the page, I'd been searching high and low and still couldn't get the question. According to friend's explanation, this question didn't sound like a samurai talk. Anyway, it wouldn't surprised me that archaic phrases as such appeared in JLPT, it was supposed to be a test aimed on all skills.

Give me some time, I'll get back with the question. Thanks again.
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family

Re: するまじと

Postby writebook » Fri 04.30.2010 1:36 am

SS wrote:A non-native friend was trying to explain to me this 援助を無駄にするまじと with that example sentence, yet I still failed to grasp the whole concept. This part seemed to mean "didn't disappoint you (the coach, in this case). The whole sentence would be "They finally won the game after a tough fight, they didn't let him (the coach) down."

援助を無駄にするまじ by itself without the 「と」 means "I won't waste the help." The 「まじ」 expresses the will that "I can't let it happen that way."
The 「と」 is like the と in ~という or ~と思う。
In your example sentence, if you replace the 「と」 with 「~と思って」 or 「~と言う考えで」 or 「~という精神で」, it will make it easier to understand the sentence.

援助を無駄にするまじと would mean something like
"With the intention of not wasting the help, they finally won the game after a tough fight."
"Refusing to waste the help, they finally won the game after a tough fight."
"Feeling that 'there's no way I can waste the help,' they finally won the game after a tough fight."
I don't know what the standard accepted translation would be, but I hope this conveys the feeling of the word ~まじと

SS wrote:According to friend's explanation, this question didn't sound like a samurai talk. Anyway, it wouldn't surprised me that archaic phrases as such appeared in JLPT, it was supposed to be a test aimed on all skills.

I would like to see this. There might be some cases I haven't thought of.
But as I said, まい is a somewhat older word, まじ is an arhcaic word, they can appear totally natural when they appear in some set expressions like まじと、but used by themselves they sound archaic, especially まじ.
writebook
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri 12.25.2009 3:17 pm
Native language: 日本語

Re: するまじと

Postby spin13 » Fri 04.30.2010 2:54 am

writebook wrote:I don't know what the standard accepted translation would be, but I hope this conveys the feeling of the word ~まじと

From a translation perspective, I think "Not wanting to ~" works, though from a content perspective, I find this particular phrase quite cumbersome. I don't think people would say this in English.

Perhaps the closest, yet natural, phrase would be "Not wanting to disappoint/let down their coach..."
You're probably not as smart as you think.
Unskilled and Unaware
spin13
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Wed 04.06.2005 9:38 pm
Location: Tokyo
Native language: English
Gender: Male

Re: するまじと

Postby ss » Fri 04.30.2010 10:39 pm

Thank you very much Writebook and Eric.

Writebookさん、
Here's the 2007年の一級問題. Obviously, the answer is (1).

留学中は両親の援助を無駄に___一生懸命頑張った。
1) するまじと
2) すべく
3) するはおろか
4) すべからず

I know sometimes it's difficult to explain nuance and subtleties. Something makes perfect sense in the target language might not make sense in other languages after translation. The slight degree of distinction, as in meaning, sensibility, feeling, tone, air, mood, atmosphere, etc. can be easily slipped.

I didn't understand that question at all, and simply chose no. (4). As I read and re-read the above explanation, this sentence made a lot sense to me now.

I appreciate you trying your very best to explain, it's enlightening, thank you for your patience once again.
User avatar
ss
 
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri 11.18.2005 10:07 am
Native language: English speaking family


Return to Grammar Questions and Problems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests