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A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

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A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby OlgaD » Mon 07.05.2010 5:38 am

Hi!

I've got a little problem with meaning of a few verbs beginning with Kanji 上 or 下.
I'll start with 上.
上がる (あがる)
上げる (あげる)
上る (のぼる).

I tried to look up in a dictionary and here's what I've found (please correct me if I'm wrong).
上がる and 上げる are a pair of transitive verbs. We use 上がる when something goes up itself (for ex.... prices?). When we say STH を 上げる - this means I RAISE STH? Is it right?
As for 上る - I found just CLIMBING (a mountain).

Now 下.
Here are the verbs:
下がる (さがる)
下る (くだる)
下げる (さげる).
I have bigger difficulty with them but I'll try.
下る seems to be the easiest - does it mean to go down? For ex. go down a mountain, or... If you go down that hill you'll find a shop. ?
下がる... Hmm. Do we use it when we say that FEVER has gone down, prices or temperature?
As for 下げる.. It;s the hardest. No idea when should I use it... Maybe when I say "He REDUCED the price"? Or sth?

And one more question... I know that 年上 and 年下 mean older and younger but... Could I say "Nowadays THE YOUNG (people) are happier"? Or just in a sentence like HE IS OLDER/YOUNGER THAN ME?

And as for comparing age.
When I try to say he is older, younger than me, why do we say:
彼は私より6才年上だ - I know I should read here SAI (it's logical to me - 2 years (of age))
彼は私より2つ年下だ
彼は私より6歳年上だ - why sometimes it is pronounced SAI (and I would understand it, 2 years(of age)) and sometimes TOSHI (I don't understand why)

Is 彼は私より2年年下だ possible? (ninen)

What is the difference between saying for ex 1才, 1歳 and 1つ or (I don't know it it is possible to use in that sentence) just 1年?
Why are there so many options with 才,歳 and 1つ? Could I just use 年 for ex ichi nen, san nen?


If I wanted to say that HE IS THREE TIMES OLDER THAN I AM should I use 倍以上 (baiijō)? Or could I just use 倍?
HE IS THREE TIMES YOUNGER THAN ME - 彼は私より3倍若いです is it ok?
How to say x times older, x times younger? Because example with YOUNGER seems ok and natural - wakai - young, bai - times. But this with OLDER - completly strange :)


Ok, I hope You will be able to give me a hand in those :)
Thank You!
OlgaD
 
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Re: A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby NileCat » Mon 07.05.2010 8:11 am

Hi OlgaD, great work!
I suppose your understanding is as good as average Japanese people's.

上がる and 上げる are a pair of transitive verbs. We use 上がる when something goes up itself (for ex.... prices?). When we say STH を 上げる - this means I RAISE STH? Is it right?
Totally correct.

As for 上る - I found just CLIMBING (a mountain).
上る(のぼる)is used when someone climbs something.
階段を上る。彼は階段を上った。
But for some reason, when it comes to a mountain, we use 登る(のぼる).

彼は両手を高く上げた。
部屋の温度が上がった。
彼は階段を上った。

Interestingly, we frequently mix them up in reality.For instance, it's common to say 階段を上がった.
I personaly think 上る can be replaced by 上がる in most of the cases. And when we use のぼる, we tend to use 登る. Such as 階段を登る。はしごを登る。丘の上に登る。
Of course there exist some difference in nuance.
登る implys the action itself. 上る implys the "change of the location".
So, strictly speaking,
階段を登る is describing the action using your feet. (climb)
階段を上る is describing the direction. (go up)

Thus, if you write エスカレーターを登る, it seems like the escalator is not working. エスカレーターを上る is better. But we tend to say エスカレーターを上がる which might be a grammar mistake I'm afraid though.
Sounds too complicated?
Sorry about that.


Now 下.
Here are the verbs:
下がる (さがる)
下る (くだる)
下げる (さげる).
I have bigger difficulty with them but I'll try.
下る seems to be the easiest - does it mean to go down? For ex. go down a mountain, or... If you go down that hill you'll find a shop. ?
下がる... Hmm. Do we use it when we say that FEVER has gone down, prices or temperature?
As for 下げる.. It;s the hardest. No idea when should I use it... Maybe when I say "He REDUCED the price"? Or sth?
上げる←→下げる
上がる←→下がる
Same usage.
両手を上げる←→両手を下げる
温度が上がる←→温度が下がる

And,
階段を上る(のぼる)←→階段を下る(くだる)
And again, sorry, we use 階段を下がる very frequently.

And one more question... I know that 年上 and 年下 mean older and younger but... Could I say "Nowadays THE YOUNG (people) are happier"? Or just in a sentence like HE IS OLDER/YOUNGER THAN ME?
Well, let me think...
Yes, you can.
現代では年下のほうが幸せだ。
近頃は年下のほうがより幸せです。
But it has a nuance of "YOUNGER (people)".

EDIT:
Or: Are you asking the noun form of "being young" or "people who are young"??
近頃では若者のほうが幸せだ。
昨今は若い人のほうが幸せだ。
Just in case.


And as for comparing age.
When I try to say he is older, younger than me, why do we say:
彼は私より6才年上だ - I know I should read here SAI (it's logical to me - 2 years (of age))
彼は私より2つ年下だ
彼は私より6歳年上だ - why sometimes it is pronounced SAI (and I would understand it, 2 years(of age)) and sometimes TOSHI (I don't understand why)
I didn't find any mistake in your sentences.

Just one thing.
歳 is always pronounced SAI in this kind of context.
才 is a simplified version of traditional kanji 歳.

Is 彼は私より2年年下だ possible? (ninen)
Possible.
But I think many people will avoid the conflict of double 年.

What is the difference between saying for ex 1才, 1歳 and 1つ or (I don't know it it is possible to use in that sentence) just 1年?
Why are there so many options with 才,歳 and 1つ? Could I just use 年 for ex ichi nen, san nen?

歳 - proper, traditional, difficult to write, (nowadays, got popular because of PC)
才 - convenient, relatively newly invented kanji, easy, common
つ - child's language, easiest, I personaly assume the limit is five years old. "I am three years old" is ぼくは3つです for instance. But adults never say 私は24つです。Never.

If you say 私は5年です。It means "I'm a fifth grader". That's why.

If I wanted to say that HE IS THREE TIMES OLDER THAN I AM should I use 倍以上 (baiijō)? Or could I just use 倍?
HE IS THREE TIMES YOUNGER THAN ME - 彼は私より3倍若いです is it ok?
Totally correct.

How to say x times older, x times younger? Because example with YOUNGER seems ok and natural - wakai - young, bai - times. But this with OLDER - completly strange
彼は私より3倍年をとっています。
Traditionary, "being old" is a sensitive issue, isn't it? Because of our politeness,:), we don't have a direct expression.

EDITED
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Re: A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby OlgaD » Thu 07.22.2010 2:50 pm

Ok, Thank You very much, I think I understand :) :D
OlgaD
 
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Re: A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby chikara » Thu 07.22.2010 8:39 pm

OlgaD wrote:..... 上がる and 上げる are a pair of transitive verbs. We use 上がる when something goes up itself (for ex.... prices?). When we say STH を 上げる - this means I RAISE STH? Is it right? .......

As NileCat-san posted your explanation of these verbs is correct however they are not a "pair of transitive verbs" but a "transitive/intransitive verb pair".

You may find the Japanese Verbs - Transitive and Intransitive Pairs page on Jim Breen's site a useful reference in this regard.
Don't complain to me that people kick you when you're down. It's your own fault for lying there
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Re: A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby qwilas » Fri 07.23.2010 8:31 am

上る(formally written 登る) contains rising progress.
So we use "山に登る", but Don't use "山に上がる".
"上がる" is used when "Finally" someone has gotten high.

*note* "昇る" means "do rise", "登る" means mainly "do climb".
For example, "成績が上がった。" means "(My) Score has improved."
Because, usually, scores is marked at the border of seasons, etc.
So we don't use "成績が昇った".

If you should say "山に上がった", you must had used helicopter,etc.

(Sorry if I used wrong English.)
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Re: A problem with 上 and 下 + older/younger

Postby OlgaD » Mon 07.26.2010 6:34 am

Thank You very much!
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