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Kanji questions

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Kanji questions

Postby joanna-banana » Fri 07.09.2010 4:21 am

If the reading for a kanji is ホ, it can also be pronounced as ボ and ポ? (ボ and ポ isn't included in the on-yomi list.)
And if it says that the reading is both ホ and ボ, it can't be pronounced as ポ? (ポ isn't included in the on-yomi list.)

I hope you understand what I mean, despite my bad English.
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby NileCat » Fri 07.09.2010 10:41 am

Hi Joanna,

If you are looking for a grammar rule there, sorry, I have to say that's incorrect.
For instance, 補 is ほ, not ぼ or ぽ. 匍, as well. And 穂, 帆 ...

Regarding the second question, can you give me an example in your mind? I have never heard of that kind of rule exists. What made you think that way?
There is another aspect so-called euphonic change (音便) in Japanese though.
e.g.
一歩=いっぽ, 二歩=にほ
安全保障(あんぜんほしょう)→abbreviated→安保(あんぽ)


ょろぴくぅ~ :)
(I read your introduction. :? )
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby joanna-banana » Fri 07.09.2010 1:42 pm

Hm... Nevermind, I realized how stupid my question was. >__< Thanks for your help~<3
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby phreadom » Fri 07.09.2010 2:01 pm

Nothing wrong with your question. :) I think what you're asking about is Rendaku. Nothing wrong with asking! That's how you learn. :D

http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewto ... 9&p=157237

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendaku

etc.

I'm sure someone could give a much better explanation, because frankly even I still get confused when people start giving a technical explanation of it. ;)

( And looking back through some other forum posts just now just confirmed that for me. ;) hehe
http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewto ... 8&p=123031
http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewto ... 2&p=142665 etc. )
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby NileCat » Fri 07.09.2010 2:20 pm

Ditto.
There is no stupid question.
Making tons of mistakes is the only way to improve ourselves, I believe.
8)
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby kurisuto » Fri 07.09.2010 4:44 pm

Just a little clarification: none of the examples given are rendaku. Taking your example: if ほ changes to っぽ it's gemination (促音化、そくおんか), as in 一歩; if ほ>ぽ, it's 半濁音化 (はんだくおんか; don't know the English term. BTW, gemination implies handakuonka in the case of [h]>[p]), as in 安保; if ほ>ぼ, it's rendaku, as in 小骨 (こぼね, form こ+ほね).

Now, knowing when one of the three occurs is hard to say. In fact, the only good advice one could give you is to learn the words as-is. Of course there are rules, but first they don't always apply (i.e. sometimes these changes occur when they "shouldn't", and sometimes they don't occur when they "should"), and secondly, well, there are too many of them!
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby phreadom » Sat 07.10.2010 6:09 am

Thanks for the clarification kurisoto-san! :)

if ほ changes to っぽ it's gemination (促音化、そくおんか), as in 一歩;

if ほ>ぽ, it's 半濁音化 (はんだくおんか; don't know the English term.

BTW, gemination implies handakuonka in the case of [h]>[p]), as in 安保;

if ほ>ぼ, it's rendaku, as in 小骨 (こぼね, form こ+ほね).


I found it easier to read them separated like that, and looked up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemination as well. :) I tried to find some more info on the handakuon, but was unsuccessful. :( But at least now I have a much better grasp of the differences between:

(The 化 「か」 in the following is like a suffix simply means something like the suffix "-ification" in English, or "the action of making something. So like 連濁化 would be "the action of sequential voicing", or to make up a term; "sequential voiceification" ;) hehe.)

ほ→っぽ (促音化 「そくおんか」 - gemination - "In phonetics, gemination happens when a spoken consonant is pronounced for an audibly longer period of time than a short consonant.")

ほ→ぼ (連濁化 「れんだくか」 - rendaku - "sequential voicing", the voicing of the initial consonant of the non-initial portion of a compound or prefixed word.)

ほ→ぽ (半濁音化 「はんだくおんか」 - like rendaku, but using the handakuten to go from unvoiced to semi-voiced handakuon (literally "semi voiced sound"; basically the unvoiced H-row kana with a handakuten ("semi voiced mark") added to make them into P sounds). (unlike rendaku, which goes from unvoiced to voiced only?) I couldn't find any better descriptions of it either.)

Sorry for the long reply. :) Writing it out helped me to wrap my head around the differences and remember them. :mrgreen:
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Re: Kanji questions

Postby kurisuto » Sat 07.10.2010 9:00 am

No problem!

>ほ→ぽ (半濁音化 「はんだくおんか」 - like rendaku, but using the handakuten to go from unvoiced to semi-voiced handakuon (literally "semi voiced sound"; basically the unvoiced H-row kana with a handakuten ("semi voiced mark") added to make them into P sounds). (unlike rendaku, which goes from unvoiced to voiced only?) I couldn't find any better descriptions of it either.)

Ah, what a confusing name! 半濁音 seems to refer to "semi-voiced" consonants, but in fact they're "normal" voiceless sounds. The handakuten serves to turn a voiceless sound (specifically "h") into another voiceless one (i.e. "p").

And you're right, rendaku can only be a change from voiceless to voiced.
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