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Haiku

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Haiku

Postby Hektor6766 » Wed 06.23.2010 11:16 pm

I saw another post about Haiku in English, and it inspired me to try some in Japanese. I didn't want to step on their thread, so I posted it here. I hope it's true there's some latitude with the mora.

花櫻
微風上浮流
優しい春


すいません。
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Re: Haiku

Postby NileCat » Thu 07.15.2010 6:47 am

Sorry. This is a very late reply. I didn't notice your post.

花櫻
・・・・・櫻 is an old kanji. Some use it in their names though, we usually prefer 桜, which is a modern version.
Anyway, はなさくら, or はなざくら, right? Either will do. Sounds very good.

微風上浮流
・・・・・Ok. There is a minor problem.
Well.. Hundreds of years ago in Japan, they used Chinese when they write something. Because kanji was originally created in China and Japan only imported them. The big difference between "Chinese origin writing" and "pure Japanese writing" is a difference of "yomi", how to pronounce it, ok?
微風上浮流 can be pronounced like びふうじょうふりゅう in our MODERN Japanese.
But in our archaic way of Chinese origin literature allows us to read it as...like... そよかぜのうえにうきながれ.
So, in a way, for us average Japanese, it is virtually impossible to make out how we should "pronounce" your line.
And, the genre is also important here. Because, if you are trying to create a kind of "Chinese origin poem" (like 五言絶句), your style totally makes sense. However, as you wrote, you are creating Haiku, right? Haiku is supposed to be pure Japanese style. (at least today) So, it would be better to use Hiragana as well. Like.... 風に流れる(かぜにながれる-7) or 風に運ばれる(かぜにはこばれる-8...Yes, it is true that there is some latitude with the mora) or そよ風に浮く(そよかぜにうく-7).

優しい春
・・・・・やさしいはる. Good.


Maybe it would be confusing that we have many styles in our traditional literature. Actually you could find many Haiku written in only kanji like Chinese poems. But usually we avoid the style when we make something new today. (Unless you are an expert in the field)

Anyway, I liked your image in your haiku. Your concept is absolutely beautiful and seems to be very decent as haiku.
Good work!
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Re: Haiku

Postby Hektor6766 » Thu 07.15.2010 7:01 pm

ありがとうございます。

I can't remember why i chose 櫻 instead of 桜. I've certainly run into the latter in my reading, never the former. I can't say I was looking for an "old" style because I wouldn't know the difference. I sometimes wonder if the 万葉集 or 源氏物語 are for modern Japanese what The Canterbury Tales or The Faerie Queen are for modern English: archaic and abstruse.

When I wrote 微風上浮流, I remember I had the modern reading in mind. I like your third fix.

I thoroughly enjoyed by Sansome's Historical Grammar (it's the source of the quote in my signature). I'd love to find more material like it.
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Re: Haiku

Postby becki_kanou » Fri 07.16.2010 9:56 pm

May I join this thread? A haiku just occurred to me as well.

夏がきた
ミンと知らせる
初蝉よ

まぁ、ありがちな一句ですけど...It just popped into my head so it's pretty rough, but I did hear the first cicada of the season yesterday, so...
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: Haiku

Postby NileCat » Sat 07.17.2010 10:35 am

becki_kanou wrote:夏がきた
ミンと知らせる
初蝉よ

Cool!

I tried to come up with something sounds nice though, turned out that I don't even know the difference between haiku and senryu... :blush:
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Re: Haiku

Postby becki_kanou » Sat 07.17.2010 8:33 pm

NileCat wrote:I tried to come up with something sounds nice though, turned out that I don't even know the difference between haiku and senryu... :blush:


ちょっと調べてみたんですけど、
川柳も俳句も同じ<五・七・五>の17音定型である....では、どこに川柳と俳句の違いをみるのでしょうか?
<形式的違い>
・俳句には、<季語>が必用ですが、川柳では特にこだわりません。
  だいこ(大根)が??の季語。
・俳句には、<切れ字>が必用ですが、川柳では特にこだわりません。
  「けり」が切れ字。
・俳句は、主に<文語>表現ですが、川柳は<口語>が普通です。
<内容的違い>
・俳句は、主に自然を対象に詠むことが中心でですが、川柳では、人事 を対象に切り取ることが中心です。俳句では、詠嘆が作句のもとになり
 「詠む」といいますが、川柳では、詠ずるのではなく「吐く」「ものす」な
 どといいます。決して、詠ずるものではありません。


らしいです。私も俳句には季語が入るというのは知っていましたけど、切れ字も要るんですね。
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: Haiku

Postby Hektor6766 » Sat 07.17.2010 11:25 pm

I'm a long way from Kyushu, but

暑い深更
蛍燃し為 
愛厚空気で
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Re: Haiku

Postby NileCat » Sun 07.18.2010 8:14 am

Mmm...

暑い深更 → あついよる(暑い夜)?
蛍燃し為 → ほたるもやして(蛍燃やして)or ほたるもやしつ(蛍燃やしつ)?
("蛍 + 燃やす" is an archaic expression, JFYI.)
愛厚空気で → ??? Sorry, I can't read it.

I'm kind of curious that if you've ever learned Chinese.
For instance, "心為花" definitely seems Chinese expression to me. Although, as I mentioned, it's difficult to differentiate Chinese and Japanese in the histrical context. In fact, in the middle ages, Japanese intelligentsiya prefered using Chinese rather than Japanese. Because most of our literature came from that advanced country in the era. Hey, take a look at the world atlas. China is a huge country which had one of the oldest civilization in the world. Compared to that, Japan looks like a flyspeck. :D
Then thing is, you can't expect us ordinary Japanese people to be able to read histrical usage of Chinese expressions today. :shock:
Also, strictly speaking, the language used in 万葉集, which was conceived in 8th century, is considerably different from the one used in 源氏物語, which was written in 11th century. Well, honestly, I know next to nothing about the details though. That's at least what I learned at school a million years ago. :P

BTW, thanks becki!
Although I knew that 季語 is crucial in haiku, I hadn't heard the term 切れ字 for decades since I graduated from school. :mrgreen:
ImagePardon my...French :D
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Re: Haiku

Postby Hektor6766 » Sun 07.18.2010 9:25 pm

No, not much beside nihao and zaijian.

It was late at night when I wrote it, so I used 深更 for "midnight"
燃し為- I used the participle to fit the meter; I didn't use ため for some rather indelicate alternate translations (ために wouldn't have fit).
I used 愛 instead of 恋 to fit the beat better; I think I might have committed the sin of carrying a thought to the next line, too.
厚 instead of 厚い was kind an elision, but "thickness" isn't what I intended.
Oh well, it's still a fun exercise.

"心為花"-from G. B. Sansom's "An Historical Grammar of Japanese".
http://www.archive.org/stream/historicalgramma00sansuoft#page/182/mode/2up He didn't cite the source, and I haven't yet found it among the works at the U. of Virginia Etext site. It's in romaji, so I had to best-guess the kana. The second line is my own, so I used modern language to avoid an artificial gravitas.
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Re: Haiku

Postby becki_kanou » Sun 07.18.2010 11:23 pm

NileCat wrote:BTW, thanks becki!
Although I knew that 季語 is crucial in haiku, I hadn't heard the term 切れ字 for decades since I graduated from school. :mrgreen:
ImagePardon my...French :D


そうきましたか?(笑) :D
そうだ、嬉しいんだ、生きる喜び!
例え胸の傷が痛んでも。
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Re: Haiku

Postby NileCat » Mon 07.19.2010 3:41 am

Ok, Hektor6766.
I always forget the uniqueness of kanji compared to the Western alphabet.
Your "fun exercise" seems a very good method to learn Japanese. :)
Keep going with your good work!
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Re: Haiku

Postby Hektor6766 » Thu 07.29.2010 10:12 pm

Nilecat wrote:
Your "fun exercise" seems a very good method to learn Japanese. :)
Keep going with your good work!

どうもありがとう。もし誰にも資したい、どうぞ。
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