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Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

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Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sat 09.11.2010 2:26 pm

Hellow! :D

I got this so far:

I can extend characters like this:
- 「さ → さあ」It becomes from a short「Sa」 to a long 'A'ed 「Saa」... Right?

BUT how do i pronunciate this:

- 「け → けい」 It is「Ke」and becomes 「Kee」 BUT do i pronunciate it 「Kee」 OR 「Kei」? :ninja:

Because i read this
while the / e / vowel sound followed by 「い」 is usually considered to a long vowel sound, the pronunciation is actually a slurred connection of the / e / and / i / vowel sounds. In other words, it should be pronounced like / ay / (as in "acorn") and not just a long / e /.



Kindly Regards Hai-San :wave:
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby squarezebra » Sat 09.11.2010 4:42 pm

If you were to really slow it down けい would sound like ke+ee, but when spoken at natural speed it will sounds closer to 'kay' as the sounds merge. Examples:
携帯電話(けいたいでんわ)sounds like kaytai denwa (mobile phone)
余計 (よけい) sounds like yokay (unnecessary/too much).

In both examples the sound almost mirrors that of 'hey/okay/nay/day' etc at natural speed.
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sat 09.11.2010 4:44 pm

So no effort on adding the "ay" sound, but its okay if it comes naturaly when speaking att full speed? :roll:
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby squarezebra » Sat 09.11.2010 4:49 pm

It's almost impossible to avoid "ay" in けい so you pronounce it like that. Don't try to differentiate and magnify the two vowel sounds as it will end up sounding strange; it's just a natural slurring of the two sounds.

try using http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi- ... dic.cgi?1C to look up words with different vowel combinations and you can actually hear audio files for most words.
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sat 09.11.2010 4:56 pm

Mmkay think i got it, Thanks for providing the info buddy! :D Really appreciate it! :bow:

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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sat 09.11.2010 4:58 pm

Oh yea and mind if I ask you one more question!!! ?
Well guess not :)

How much time do I have to spend on Hiragana? Do I have to 'master' it to go on with Katakana and Kanji?
Or will i learn more as I go on to the other alphabets?

Thanks in advance, Hai-San :ninja:

EDIT: Sorry but one more thing, I've problem pronuncating "R" ろ れ る り ら. Sometimes it sounds like "B" or "L"..
Cant get it to work!
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby squarezebra » Sat 09.11.2010 5:28 pm

Stick at Hiragana until you can do it in your sleep, and don't think about kanji until its done.
The faster you can get away from Romaji the better.
The sounds for katakana are parallel with hiragana. Katakana is noticeably more difficult to remember however, if only because you won't come across it as often.
The japanese R sound sits between R and L... I can't explain it in words. You're better off watching some J-Drama or anime to get used to how that sounds.
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sat 09.11.2010 5:33 pm

Kk buddy! Btw Iam not even doing romaji, this is my second day and iam playing "memmory" games to learn each character of Hiragana... But cmon its so hard to remember them! :D
This will take a while, I better find some "Learn Japanese" classes around my neighbourhood :dance:

And for the L and R sound, i think i understood 100% what you meant! But still gonna check it out..
Again Thanks alot! :D
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby furrykef » Sat 09.11.2010 10:39 pm

squarezebra wrote:If you were to really slow it down けい would sound like ke+ee, but when spoken at natural speed it will sounds closer to 'kay' as the sounds merge.

Most materials teach that けい is pronounced けえ, not like け+い at all. (However, this does apparently vary depending on dialect.) Most Japanese that I've heard -- which is admittedly "textbook" Japanese and not Japanese on TV, the streets, etc. -- seems to confirm this.

The Pocket Kenkyusha Japanese Dictionary even carries this over into its romanization: せんせい is under "sensee", not "sensei".
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby micahcowan » Sat 09.11.2010 11:32 pm

Gotta agree with furrykef, "kay" for けい would sound really really odd to me. Maybe the confusion is that Japanese "e" isn't "eh" as in "get", nor "ay" as in "gate", but somewhere between the two. But that doesn't really change with the addition of an い after it, and there's no diphthong in けい. Not in any Japanese I've heard. The only exception that comes to mind would be words like えいえん.
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby chikara » Sat 09.11.2010 11:58 pm

micahcowan wrote:Gotta agree with furrykef, "kay" for けい would sound really really odd to me. ....

That is just how it sounds to me. :?

For example listen to and in the compound 時計

Maybe it is a difference between your pronunciation of "kay" and mine. :think:
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby squarezebra » Sun 09.12.2010 2:31 am

micahcowan wrote:Gotta agree with furrykef, "kay" for けい would sound really really odd to me. Maybe the confusion is that Japanese "e" isn't "eh" as in "get", nor "ay" as in "gate", but somewhere between the two. But that doesn't really change with the addition of an い after it, and there's no diphthong in けい. Not in any Japanese I've heard. The only exception that comes to mind would be words like えいえん.


Depends on your own accent and how you say 'kay'; some people seem to drag out the vowel and and sound the 'y' and that does sound really weird.
Without getting overly technical and smart, I can confidently say you'd have little trouble being understood with a short and snappy 'ay' sound for けい even if it isn't 100% textbook accurate. Its almost impossible to have this discussion on a forum though because I have no idea what your frame of reference for sounds/dialects/accents is.
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sun 09.12.2010 10:26 am

micahcowan wrote:Gotta agree with furrykef, "kay" for けい would sound really really odd to me. Maybe the confusion is that Japanese "e" isn't "eh" as in "get", nor "ay" as in "gate", but somewhere between the two. But that doesn't really change with the addition of an い after it, and there's no diphthong in けい. Not in any Japanese I've heard. The only exception that comes to mind would be words like えいえん.


This just caught my eye, ehm as said Im only a beginner and i guess えいえん is pronunciated like "e-e-en" ? Right? :sweatdrop: As I understood whenever theres a "い" After a "え" the "い" gets pronunciated like a "え" ...?
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby NileCat » Sun 09.12.2010 2:16 pm

I found a wikipedia article about this subject.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%95%B7%E9%9F%B3
Wikipedia "長音 wrote:長音(ちょうおん)とは、日本語の音節で、母音を通常の倍にのばしたものを言う。すなわち、1音節で2モーラを持つものである。音声学的には長母音である。
長音を仮名で書き表す方法は現代仮名遣いでは次のように規定されている。

あ列の長音は、あ列の仮名に「あ」を添える。
例:かあさん(母さん)
い列の長音は、い列の仮名に「い」を添える。
例:にいさん(兄さん)
う列の長音は、う列の仮名に「う」を添える。
例:くうき(空気)
え列の長音は、え列の仮名に「え」を添える。
例:ねえさん(姉さん)
かせいで(稼)、へい(塀)などは、「カセイデ」「ヘイ」と発音する者と「カセーデ」「ヘー」と発音する者があるが、どちらの発音をするかに関わらず、え列の音節に「い」を添えて表記する。
お段の仮名の長音の場合には、おのかわりにうを添える
例:こうしん(コーシン/更新)
お段の仮名でも、後続する音が歴史的仮名遣いで「ほ」または「を」であった場合には、「お」を添える
例:おおきい(大きい)
ただし、次の場合には、長音符(ー)を使う表記法が一般化している。

1.外来語など、カタカナで表記される語
例:フリー
次の場合には、現代仮名遣いに則した方法と、現代仮名遣いに反して長音符を使った表記法とが並存している。

1.擬音・擬態語
2.例:しいん/しーん
3.強調のため長呼
すごうく、ひろうい/すごーく、ひろーい。
4.感動詞、方言・俗語
例:ふうん、ええ/ふーん、えー。
  ええがな、このやろう/えーがな、このやろー。


In terms of the first 「あいうえお」examples,
かあさん can be pronounced like かーさん
にいさん can be pronounced like にーさん
くうき can be pronounced like くーき
ねえさん can be pronounced like ねーさん
こうしん can be pronounced like こーしん

Or, we actually use a sound in between.
計算機 can be pronounced like けーさんき
永遠 can be pronounced like えーえん

時計 can also be pronounced like とけー
But please note that people who use too many prolonged sounds might be seem "childish" or "uneducated". If not, it sounds casual in many cases. It depends on the context, though.
For instance, a proper news caster would call 携帯電話 keitai-denwa or keetai-denwa. On street, many (especially young people) call it ケータイ.
よけーなお世話だ! would sound blunt.
よけいなお世話です! would sound relatively proper.
よけえなお世話だよ! would also sound ok. a little bit hard-assed.

But when you write it down, it has to be よけい(余計).
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Re: Pronunciating 「い」 While using it to extend vowel sounds!

Postby Hai-San » Sun 09.12.2010 4:21 pm

NileCat wrote:I found a wikipedia article about this subject.

In terms of the first 「あいうえお」examples,
かあさん can be pronounced like かーさん
にいさん can be pronounced like にーさん
くうき can be pronounced like くーき
ねえさん can be pronounced like ねーさん
こうしん can be pronounced like こーしん



Im just on Hiragan and you wrote ー up there. I couldnt find what it was, is it like a "pause" of something?
Iam pretty sure i will tackle it on Tae Kims when i move on, but iam just beeing curious :whistle:

Cheers, Hai-San :ninja:
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