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Small hangup

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Small hangup

Postby micahcowan » Mon 10.11.2010 11:29 pm

I wasn't entirely sure I understood this sentence (from 実践Cプログラミング, 鈴木正人), though I think I do:

UNIX は最初はアセンブリ言語で書かれていたが、C言語に書き直されることで後に多くのシステムに移植され爆発的に普及していった.その簡潔性・効率性・移植性の高さは 30 年以上を経た現在でも多くのアプリケーションプログラムの他、UNIX およびそれと互換性をもつ Linux などのオペレーティングシステムもほとんどがC言語を用いて開発されていることからもうかがい知ることができる

1) Am I right in thinking 「UNIXおよびそれと互換性」is parsed as 「UNIXおよび(、)それと互換性をもつ Linux」, meaning something like "Linux, which is compatible with and even called by the name UNIX"?

2) The うかがい is paired with その簡潔性・効率性・移植性の高さは, right?

Here's my attempted translation (not including the first sentence):

The degree of its [the C language's] conciseness, efficiency, and portability, may be understood from the fact that even now, some thirty-plus years since its conception, many other application programs, and various operating systems such as Linux (which is compatible with and even called by the name UNIX), are developed using primarily the C language.
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Re: Small hangup

Postby NileCat » Tue 10.12.2010 3:11 am

You're right.

Just one thing I'm not quite sure (because of my poor English comprehension) is "Linux, which is compatible with and even called by the name UNIX" part.

UNIXおよびそれと互換性をもつLINUXなどのOS
UNIX, and some (other) OSs that are compatible with (the UNIX), such as Linux....
I know my English sucks but, meaning-wise, the primary example the writer wanted to mention was UNIX, not Linux.
I don't know if it's already clear in your translation, though. Just in case.
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Re: Small hangup

Postby yangmuye » Tue 10.12.2010 10:11 am

UNIX は最初はアセンブリ言語で書かれていたが、C言語に書き直されることで後に多くのシステムに移植され爆発的に普及していった。その簡潔性・効率性・移植性の高さは30年以上を経た現在でも、多くのアプリケーションプログラムの他、UNIX、及びそれと互換性を持つLinuxなどのオペレーティングシステムも、ほとんどがC言語を用いて開発されていることからも窺い知ることができる。


その簡潔性・効率性・移植性の高さは{{...こと}}からも窺い知ることができる
The degree of its conciseness, efficiency, and portability could also be understood from {{the fact that ...}}

{{多くのアプリケーションプログラム}}の他、{{...}}も
In addition to {{...}}, {{...}} also

{{...}}(は)殆どがC言語を用いて開発されている
Almost all {{...}} are developed using the C
(As for {...}, almost all of them are ...)

UNIX、及びそれと互換性をもつLinuxなどのオペレーティングシステム
Operation systems such as UNIX and Linux which is compatible with it(UNIX)

I'm not sure because I'm a just a beginner.
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Re: Small hangup

Postby micahcowan » Tue 10.12.2010 1:34 pm

NileCat wrote:You're right.

Just one thing I'm not quite sure (because of my poor English comprehension) is "Linux, which is compatible with and even called by the name UNIX" part.

UNIXおよびそれと互換性をもつLINUXなどのOS
UNIX, and some (other) OSs that are compatible with (the UNIX), such as Linux....
I know my English sucks but, meaning-wise, the primary example the writer wanted to mention was UNIX, not Linux.
I don't know if it's already clear in your translation, though. Just in case.


Your English is quite fine, other than that "...are compatible with (the UNIX)" shouldn't have "the".

This is certainly not clear in my translation. Thank you for pointing it out.

In that case, what is the meaning of UNIXおよび? "UNIX itself"? Is it 及び or お呼び? I couldn't really understand the meaning using either, though 及び seems much more natural in context - but I went with お呼び for my "called UNIX" version. If it's 及び, is it "reaching even to UNIX", or maybe best as "including UNIX"?

Also, my translation didn't account for the など after Linux, as yours does. Thanks for the clarification!

yangmuye wrote:{{...}}(は)殆どがC言語を用いて開発されている
Almost all {{...}} are developed using the C
(As for {...}, almost all of them are ...)


Hm, I would like to parse it like that too, but I don't think it's right: mainly because it would be wildly untrue to say that, at least for the アプリケーションプログラム part. I don't believe it's sensible to say that the vast majority of applications in the world were written in the C programming language. I'm thinking the ほとんど is there mainly because, while there are many application programs that are written entirely in C, there are no operating systems that are written entirely in C (at some point, some assembly code is inevitable). Of course, the ほとんど applies to both, and as far as I can tell grammatically, it could be read as you read it. NileCat, is there some nuance that distinguishes this sentence as clearly meaning one or the other of "Most applications/OSs are written using C" versus "Many applications/OSs are written using mostly C"? Maybe the presence of 多く in 多くのアプリケーションプログラム?
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Re: Small hangup

Postby Hyperworm » Tue 10.12.2010 1:55 pm

Are you trying to work out 及び from 及ぶ? Too clever I'm afraid ^^; Just look up 及び! :D

As for the ほとんど part, I agree with yangmuye's interpretation - it's just that I think you've overestimated the reach of ほとんど :

現在でも多くのアプリケーションプログラムの他、[...Linux] などのオペレーティングシステムもほとんどがC言語を用いて開発されている
Even now, aside from (the) many application programs, even most operating systems such as [Linux ...] etc are developed using C

I don't think the ほとんど extends over アプリケーションプログラム.
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Re: Small hangup

Postby yangmuye » Wed 10.13.2010 1:41 am

micahcowan wrote:
NileCat wrote:
yangmuye wrote:{{...}}(は)殆どがC言語を用いて開発されている
Almost all {{...}} are developed using the C
(As for {...}, almost all of them are ...)


Hm, I would like to parse it like that too, but I don't think it's right: mainly because it would be wildly untrue to say that, at least for the アプリケーションプログラム part. I don't believe it's sensible to say that the vast majority of applications in the world were written in the C programming language. I'm thinking the ほとんど is there mainly because, while there are many application programs that are written entirely in C, there are no operating systems that are written entirely in C (at some point, some assembly code is inevitable). Of course, the ほとんど applies to both, and as far as I can tell grammatically, it could be read as you read it. NileCat, is there some nuance that distinguishes this sentence as clearly meaning one or the other of "Most applications/OSs are written using C" versus "Many applications/OSs are written using mostly C"? Maybe the presence of 多く in 多くのアプリケーションプログラム?


I never thought about this question. Since you can't avoid writing assembly to controll the hardware, it can be regarded as a pure C programm as long as its logic is expressed in C.
I just interprete the sentence as APPが多くC言語を用いて開発されている。そして、OSも殆どC言語を用いて開発されている。
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Re: Small hangup

Postby micahcowan » Wed 10.13.2010 11:59 am

Hyperworm wrote:Are you trying to work out 及び from 及ぶ? Too clever I'm afraid ^^; Just look up 及び! :D

D'oh! Thanks. :D

As for the ほとんど part, I agree with yangmuye's interpretation - it's just that I think you've overestimated the reach of ほとんど :

現在でも多くのアプリケーションプログラムの他、[...Linux] などのオペレーティングシステムもほとんどがC言語を用いて開発されている
Even now, aside from (the) many application programs, even most operating systems such as [Linux ...] etc are developed using C

I don't think the ほとんど extends over アプリケーションプログラム.


Yeah, okay, that works, thanks.
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