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won

Postby themonk » Fri 12.03.2010 9:58 am

Thank you.
Last edited by themonk on Tue 08.02.2011 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: won't you Come To my House ?

Postby NileCat » Fri 12.03.2010 1:22 pm

Yes. That’s right. They both are proper and correct in our modern usage.
I guess you know well enough the technical explanation about the two particles, function-wise. We usually pick up one of them arbitrarily. However, there exists a very subtle difference of nuance. Let me explain from a native speaker’s viewpoint. :sweatdrop:

The simplest way to differentiate them would be thinking of the standpoint of the speaker. As you know, for “e” usually indicates the “direction” while “ni” indicates the “location”, the speaker’s standpoint/viewpoint will sound somewhat different.
Uchi E --- the speaker’s standpoint exists out of the house
Uchi Ni --- the speaker’s standpoint exists in the house
You see, so far?
Now, the question is what kind of nuance they each can convey, then? What do you make of it?

In terms of “politeness”, in Japanese, it is regarded to be more polite to look things from the other person’s standpoint. For it is an opposite attitude to being “selfish”. Therefore, in many situations, “uchi e” would sound more proper/formal than “uchi ni”, because the speaker’s standpoint seems closer to the listener.
Nevertheless, if it is "ie" (家 can be pronounced either way), because there is a collision of the same vowels in “ie-e”, some people would deliberately circumvent using “ie-e” and prefer “ie-ni” (at least in our modern usage).

Also, you know, this "general rule" is not always true. It depends on the situation, to be honest. I mean, "uchi-ni" can deliver a relatively "relaxed" feeling because it's slightly more casual, which means it could make more warm "welcome" feeling in a way. :doh:

Too complicated? Sorry but that is the only reasonable explanation I can make. :(
Hope it helps.

By the way, in your post, “irashyai // masu-ka” would be the correct compartment location, grammatically. :wink: (いらっしゃる + ます + か?)


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Re: won't you Come To my House ?

Postby themonk » Sat 12.04.2010 10:51 am

Dear Nilecat ~
Thank you for much for the reply. It was not complicated at all. Very easy to follow. Very thorough. I did not know the things that you so kindly assumed that i did. Thank you for the clear writing.

When you said that some people choose to se "ni" to avoid the collision of the vowles, were you suggesting that they want to be phonetically clear to the listener?

You pointed out the irashyai-masu-ka part. I appreciate that. I am guessing that is because i am not using hiragana yet.

I made a point of learning it and katakana shortly after i began Pimsleur level 1 (30 units for each level. I am at level 2, unit 15 right now). Thanks to all the learners who came before me on this forum and elsewhere, i mastered hiragana pretty soon and without sweating much. However, it felt twice as hard with katakana. I wonder if that is the case with all learners or, just me.

So i held off.

Instead, i focused on Pimsleur, because i thought that it had a good point in directing your energy to hearing, not dividing between hearing, looking and grammar all at once.

Somewhere between unit 15 and unit 20 of level 1, i attempted transcribing my romaji notes to hiragana, but the effort was humongous. In my humble opinion, it was mainly because how Pimsleur teaches. I am not blaming it. But, as a matter of fact, i know little to no grammar. I did not even know the "stem" thing for verbs, until Hektor san brought it up in my post, which is the road to tokyo.

However, i consider myself a serious learner, because i made a point of learning kanas, and because of the investment (time and money wise) i have made so far. I know that as a serious learner, i must master kanas. But without the most basic knowledge of the construction of words (verbs' forms, adjectives conjugate), i found it impossible even to look up words in dictionaries. So i kept creating my notes in romajis. Which is why you saw that hilarious thing. I laughed my head off, when i saw what you wrote. That must have looked hilarious from a native speaker's point of view (and i agree).

This thanksgiving, the order of the first load of my grammar textbooks arrived, at a time, when i can somewhat say, i know a little japanese. So i was thinking, this might be a good point for me to gradually wean myself off romajis.

At a minimum, i was thinking, i can take advantage of the books by lifting words and sentences that i learned in Pimsleur which appear in these books. Not to mention the glossary that many of them offer at the end.

The good thing with Pimsleur, though - - i do not know if this would be any consolation to you who is so generous in helping beginners like me - - is this: when i flip open any of these textbook text-books which all use kanas, i can read with no problem as long as it is a word /sentence that Pimsleur had taught me.



oldwordstudy wrote:Folks, another particle question.

Pimsleur 2 , unit 15.
Won't you come to my house?

I thought i heard (after four tries):
Watashi no uchi NI irashya imasu ka?

This is a review of the polite form of that verb.

However, when this was first introduced in unit 14, i had in my notes:
Watashi no uchi E irashya imasu ka?

for the same English.

What is wrong? Or, in both instances, i heard it right, but it is just that they can BOTH be used as proper japanese?

Thank you.
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Re: won't you Come To my House ?

Postby NileCat » Sat 12.04.2010 2:38 pm

When you said that some people choose to se "ni" to avoid the collision of the vowles, were you suggesting that they want to be phonetically clear to the listener?

Exactly. Plus, it’s a bit tough to pronounce for us. Can you try to say “I went to Zimbabwe” in Japanese? Jinbabue-e-iki-mashita is a little bit more difficult to say than Jinbabue-ni, you see?

Regarding learning methods, I think there are various ways available today to acquire foreign language. I personally believe any will do as long as you like it.
When I restarted my English study a couple years ago, I asked to my friends who are professional translators that how I should study. One recommended reading as many books as I can, hopefully repeatedly until I can recite and quote some passages. Another friend told me to do dictation. Watching TV or movies and write down every single word. And she told me that it would improve my understanding of grammar as well, because there are tons of inaudible sounds in the native materials. She said, “grammar always helps you to make out the words you can’t hear”, and I think she was right. I’ve been doing both practices since then.

I don’t know if the day I understand English stand-up comedies would come in another, say, ten years. But I’m enjoying my study. :whistle:
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