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Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

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Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby Michael_SD » Sat 01.22.2011 9:15 pm

I am still stumped with regard to the Dictionary form appearing mid-sentence.

太陽は東からのぼって西にしずんで、そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。
太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ、そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。

My translation of the first sentence is "I think that the sun sets in the west from the east, and as it travels, it passes the south."

How does the second differ from the first? Why is Dictionary form in the second, and how does Dictionary form in mid-sentence function in Japanese, in general?
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby NileCat » Sun 01.23.2011 1:57 pm

The second sentence is actually not a sentence but two sentences.
1) 太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ、と私は思います。
2) そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。
→ I think {something period / and something period}

On the other hand, your first sentence is a sentence connected by "~て".
→ I think something and something period

Got it?
And, maybe, the “dictionary form” you mentioned can be assumed just "simple present" here, I guess.
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby Michael_SD » Sun 01.23.2011 11:13 pm

NileCat wrote:The second sentence is actually not a sentence but two sentences.
1) 太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ、と私は思います。
2) そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。
→ I think {something period / and something period}

On the other hand, your first sentence is a sentence connected by "~て".
→ I think something and something period

Got it?
And, maybe, the “dictionary form” you mentioned can be assumed just "simple present" here, I guess.

I feel comfortable with the first sentence -- 太陽は東からのぼって西にしずんで、そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。
I understand this as "I believe that the sun sets in the west -- from the east -- and during its course, it passes the south."

But, I do not feel comfortable with these two sentences -- 太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ、そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。

Maybe if I found out what the *difference* in meaning between these two sentences:

太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ、そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。
and
太陽は東からのぼって西にしずむ。そして途中で南を通る、と私は思います。

I could work out the grammar, punctuation, or whatever it is I just do not follow here.

So, could you give an English reading of each, and then I could do so.

Thanks.


(I asked this general question in a thread in another forum, and there, I tentatively thought I understood the answer. Subsequently, it turned out that I actually did not understand; I recently did a follow-up question to an answer another poster made in that thread, but he did not respond. Maybe he forgot about the thread.)
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby NileCat » Mon 01.24.2011 1:50 am

I think I understood your confusion now.
It seems to me that there are three ways to answer to your question. Take whichever you like.

Answer A:
There is no difference in meaning. That’s only a style issue. The choice of comma or period makes no difference here.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and it passes the south on the way."
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And it passes the south on the way."

Answer B:
There is a difference.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and it passes the south on the way, I think"
vs.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And it passes the south on the way, I think"

Answer C:
The first thing you might want to note is that that is a colloquial sentence rather than a proper writing. When you speak, you don’t care where you put commas and periods, do you?
Moreover, this sentence sounds kind of odd if it comes alone. If you want to be logical, the three things (which are it rises, it sets, and it passes) should be described in chronological order. So, strictly speaking, the usage of “and" (it passes the south) is illogical, not to say wrong.
The only reasonable explanation is that this sentence was an answer to a question like "Which direction can you see the sun passing in the sky at a certain time of a day, north or south?" The primary thing the speaker wanted to say was "It passes the south" part. He just added "The sun rises in the east and sets in the west" part to make his theory clear.
In that sense, your second sentence(s) makes more sense, at least. Two sentences. He states the obvious fact (which is the sun rises in the east and sets in the west) at first and tells his opinion (which is it passes the south) and adds "I think/believe" at the end.
However, if you write it down on an essay or something, the recommended proper sentence would be: 太陽は東から昇り西に沈みますが、その途中で南を通る、と私は考えますor something like that. The use of "そして" here sounds "unsophisticated" or simply childish in the proper writing.
In short, there is no difference when it is spoken. But both of them are not "proper" sentences according to strict grammar. (EDIT: mainly because of the inappropriate use of the conjunction そして)

Nevertheless, if the speaker was, well, kind of “retarded” and not sure which direction the sun rises in, that would be another story. :?

If you have further questions about dictionary form in the middle of a sentence, please give me another example sentence that confuses you. I think there are some proper dictionary-form-related usages that might be kind of difficult to get. But, unfortunately, it seems tough to cover all of them at once here, I’m afraid. :)
(EDIT: Michael_SD, I know you are, at least, upper-intermediate to advanced level. And I’m quite sure that your "uncomfortable feeling" originally came from the poor/casual structure of the example sentences. :P )

Hope it helps.
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby Michael_SD » Tue 01.25.2011 7:15 pm

NileCat wrote:I think I understood your confusion now.
It seems to me that there are three ways to answer to your question. Take whichever you like.

Answer A:
There is no difference in meaning. That’s only a style issue. The choice of comma or period makes no difference here.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and it passes the south on the way."
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And it passes the south on the way."

Answer B:
There is a difference.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and it passes the south on the way, I think"
vs.
"The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. And it passes the south on the way, I think"

Answer C:
The first thing you might want to note is that that is a colloquial sentence rather than a proper writing. When you speak, you don’t care where you put commas and periods, do you?
Moreover, this sentence sounds kind of odd if it comes alone. If you want to be logical, the three things (which are it rises, it sets, and it passes) should be described in chronological order. So, strictly speaking, the usage of “and" (it passes the south) is illogical, not to say wrong.
The only reasonable explanation is that this sentence was an answer to a question like "Which direction can you see the sun passing in the sky at a certain time of a day, north or south?" The primary thing the speaker wanted to say was "It passes the south" part. He just added "The sun rises in the east and sets in the west" part to make his theory clear.
In that sense, your second sentence(s) makes more sense, at least. Two sentences. He states the obvious fact (which is the sun rises in the east and sets in the west) at first and tells his opinion (which is it passes the south) and adds "I think/believe" at the end.
However, if you write it down on an essay or something, the recommended proper sentence would be: 太陽は東から昇り西に沈みますが、その途中で南を通る、と私は考えますor something like that. The use of "そして" here sounds "unsophisticated" or simply childish in the proper writing.
In short, there is no difference when it is spoken. But both of them are not "proper" sentences according to strict grammar. (EDIT: mainly because of the inappropriate use of the conjunction そして)

Nevertheless, if the speaker was, well, kind of “retarded” and not sure which direction the sun rises in, that would be another story. :?

If you have further questions about dictionary form in the middle of a sentence, please give me another example sentence that confuses you. I think there are some proper dictionary-form-related usages that might be kind of difficult to get. But, unfortunately, it seems tough to cover all of them at once here, I’m afraid. :)
(EDIT: Michael_SD, I know you are, at least, upper-intermediate to advanced level. And I’m quite sure that your "uncomfortable feeling" originally came from the poor/casual structure of the example sentences. :P )

Hope it helps.

First of all, as always, I appreciate your response.

I read and thought about what you wrote.

The "Sun rises . . ." sentences, certainly well-intentioned, might have been somewhat extemporaneously written by the poster in the other forum I mentioned in my previous post.

Let me post -- with a bit of hesitancy -- the original 教科書の読み物 sentence that caused me to ask the question originally in that other forum.

Here it is:
世の中は時代とともによくなって いく、そしてよくしていくべきだ、と私は思います。

Instead of my analyzing this sentence, let me ask what your take on it is?
What is its English equivalent?
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby NileCat » Tue 01.25.2011 8:41 pm

“I believe that our world will be getting better with the times, and that we should make it better.” is the meaning, though...

Ok. Let me explain.

Let’s begin with the basics.

世の中は良くなっていく。
"The world will be getting better."
世の中は良くなっていくと思います。
"I think the world will be getting better."

I think ~[object phrase] = ~と思います
The object phrase should be “dictionary form” here.

Let's take a look at more simple sentence.
"I think she will come to school today."
彼女は今日学校に来ると思います。
We never say 彼女は今日学校に来ますと思います.
In a sense, it describes the fact that “she comes” at the future by using the dictionary form.

I think she will study.
彼女は勉強すると思います。
Same thing, right?

Then, let’s combine the two.
“I think she will come to school and study today”

There are a couple of ways.
1) 彼女は今日学校に来て勉強すると思います。
This is a basic structure. You can connect the two sentences using 連用形.
2) 彼女は今日学校に来て、そして勉強すると思います。
By using the conjunction, you can add some nuance that two things would happen consecutively, like "and then".
3) 彼女は今日学校に来る、そして勉強すると思います。
This is the structure that has been annoying you, right?
The question is, what’s the difference?

If I’m allowed to exaggerate the nuance, I’d translate it like this:
“I think she is coming to school today for sure, and I believe that she will study.”
Well, the nuance differs depending on the context, though, you can add some accents about your opinion/prediction by separating the two things using the dictionary form for the first sentence. The effect can be kind of dramatic, in a way.

Now, let’s take a look at your example.
世の中は時代と共に良くなっていく、そして良くしていくべきだ、と私は思います。
Imagine that you are making a speech in front of a big audience.
By separating the sentence, you can add some kind of…well…like..”Our world can be a better place! And, Yes! We can make it! That’s what I believe in!” feelings.

When the audience listens to the speech, their reaction would be:
世の中は時代と共に良くなっていく → Oh, that’s true!
そして、→ we’re listening.
良くしていくべきだ → Absolutely true! We agree!
と私は思います → Yes, you’re right! You’re telling us the truth!

Hehe, do you know what I mean?
The trick of this sentence structure, or rhetoric, is that the first phrase sounds "assertive". But, since it’s nothing but a sentence made of two sentences grammatically speaking, we usually use comma instead of period.
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby Michael_SD » Wed 01.26.2011 8:47 pm

NileCat wrote:“I believe that our world will be getting better with the times, and that we should make it better.” is the meaning, though...

Ok. Let me explain.

Let’s begin with the basics.

世の中は良くなっていく。
"The world will be getting better."
世の中は良くなっていくと思います。
"I think the world will be getting better."

I think ~[object phrase] = ~と思います
The object phrase should be “dictionary form” here.

Let's take a look at more simple sentence.
"I think she will come to school today."
彼女は今日学校に来ると思います。
We never say 彼女は今日学校に来ますと思います.
In a sense, it describes the fact that “she comes” at the future by using the dictionary form.

I think she will study.
彼女は勉強すると思います。
Same thing, right?

Then, let’s combine the two.
“I think she will come to school and study today”

There are a couple of ways.
1) 彼女は今日学校に来て勉強すると思います。
This is a basic structure. You can connect the two sentences using 連用形.
2) 彼女は今日学校に来て、そして勉強すると思います。
By using the conjunction, you can add some nuance that two things would happen consecutively, like "and then".
3) 彼女は今日学校に来る、そして勉強すると思います。
This is the structure that has been annoying you, right?
The question is, what’s the difference?

If I’m allowed to exaggerate the nuance, I’d translate it like this:
“I think she is coming to school today for sure, and I believe that she will study.”
Well, the nuance differs depending on the context, though, you can add some accents about your opinion/prediction by separating the two things using the dictionary form for the first sentence. The effect can be kind of dramatic, in a way.

Now, let’s take a look at your example.
世の中は時代と共に良くなっていく、そして良くしていくべきだ、と私は思います。
Imagine that you are making a speech in front of a big audience.
By separating the sentence, you can add some kind of…well…like..”Our world can be a better place! And, Yes! We can make it! That’s what I believe in!” feelings.

When the audience listens to the speech, their reaction would be:
世の中は時代と共に良くなっていく → Oh, that’s true!
そして、→ we’re listening.
良くしていくべきだ → Absolutely true! We agree!
と私は思います → Yes, you’re right! You’re telling us the truth!

Hehe, do you know what I mean?
The trick of this sentence structure, or rhetoric, is that the first phrase sounds "assertive". But, since it’s nothing but a sentence made of two sentences grammatically speaking, we usually use comma instead of period.

WOW. Now I finally get it. After almost four years of studying Japanese, this *was* the one that gave me the most trouble. You finally set me straight. Others pointed it out as well in the other forum, but because I am obtuse at times, I failed to understand them. :blush:
Maybe you can hear a loud bang as I smack my forehead in astonishment at failing to see this before.

I do understand it. As you pointed out, the speaker of the sentence thinks those *two* ideas.

Here are my examples to display my (belated) understanding.
世の中は時代とともによくなって いく、そしてよくしていくべきだ、と私は思います。 (There is a speaker present in this sentence who thinks/believes those two things.)

世の中は時代とともによくなって いく、そしてよくしていくべきだ。(I Know why this is wrong: There is no speaker expressing his opinions, and so the two clauses cannot be grammatically linked that way.)

世の中は時代とともによくなって いって、そしてよくしていくべきだ。 (Does not require a speaker to be grammatically correct.)

So, did I pass this one?

(I have to be out of town for a couple of days for my job, so I won't be able to read or respond to this forum again till Saturday.)
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby NileCat » Wed 01.26.2011 11:10 pm

Your understanding is correct, Michael_SD.
BUT,
Michael_SD wrote: 世の中は時代とともによくなって いく、そしてよくしていくべきだ。(I Know why this is wrong: There is no speaker expressing his opinions, and so the two clauses cannot be grammatically linked that way.)

This is only true when you want to be strict in grammar, well, at university-level, so to speak. Many people use that form casually because it is seemingly just two normal sentences connected by そして. Do you see the point? This grammar error (discrepancy of the subjects) can be essentially attributed to the intrinsic structure of Japanese language, mainly by the allowance of the absence of subjects. Many people are "tolerant" of the omission of "I think" part when it is obvious in the context. Now, I think you’re capable of pointing out the grammatical inaccuracy of the first example you showed us in your original post. The speaker just mixed up the rhetoric with a simple combination of two simple sentences, which is common, however, that’s not a good example to explain about the structure and its function. (unless the speaker did want to exclaim that the sun sets in the west)
Anyway, I’m glad to see you finally got it. :)
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Re: Midsentence Dictionary form、vs. Midsentence TE form

Postby Michael_SD » Sat 01.29.2011 8:13 pm

NileCat wrote:Your understanding is correct, Michael_SD.
BUT,
Michael_SD wrote: 世の中は時代とともによくなって いく、そしてよくしていくべきだ。(I Know why this is wrong: There is no speaker expressing his opinions, and so the two clauses cannot be grammatically linked that way.)

This is only true when you want to be strict in grammar, well, at university-level, so to speak. Many people use that form casually because it is seemingly just two normal sentences connected by そして. Do you see the point? This grammar error (discrepancy of the subjects) can be essentially attributed to the intrinsic structure of Japanese language, mainly by the allowance of the absence of subjects. Many people are "tolerant" of the omission of "I think" part when it is obvious in the context. Now, I think you’re capable of pointing out the grammatical inaccuracy of the first example you showed us in your original post. The speaker just mixed up the rhetoric with a simple combination of two simple sentences, which is common, however, that’s not a good example to explain about the structure and its function. (unless the speaker did want to exclaim that the sun sets in the west)
Anyway, I’m glad to see you finally got it. :)

Gotcha. I didn't pay attention to the different subjects. The first subject is the world, and the other is the (implied) people who are expected to improve it.
So, I think a sentence like this looks much better:
世の中は時代とともによくなって いく。そして私たちはよくしていくべきだ。

It's a good thing you made that point, because everything I learn causes me to accumulate knowledge. I don't know if my Japanese will ever be as good as your English, but I will keep trying.
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