Japanese Bible!

Do you have a translation question?
turonkusu
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Japanese Bible!

Post by turonkusu » Sun 02.06.2011 11:26 pm

たといわたしが、人々の言葉や御使たちの言葉を語っても、もし愛がなければ、わたしは、やかましい鐘や騒がしい鐃鉢と同じである

question here is simple. 御使 this 2 kanji mean angel based on the bible, however i have not been able to find out why is these 2 kanji. If angel is writen 天使 why then the other way? is that an older way? and how do you read it? If the case is that is older does anyone have some history on the change?

kt_anthrax
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by kt_anthrax » Mon 02.07.2011 12:04 am

hello

I'm not sure about Bible, at all
also, I am not sure about the history :P
but pronounces are totally different those two words, 御使 and 天使
御使=みつかい
天使=てんし
And other expression is 神使

The meanings of all 3 words seem to be same for me

I guess as like followings

使=使い(つかい) 使わす(つかわす)=遣わす(つかわす)
天(てん)=神(かみ)
御 has many meanings
But in this case "御" has meanings of respect or polite, I guess

御使、天使、神使
=神(かみ)が使わす(つかわす)者(者)

I am not sure about Bible
also I do not have any offending meaning.
But if you feel something strange in above text,
please forgive me for my ignorance about bible

thanks :D

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chikara
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Re: Japanese Bible

Post by chikara » Mon 02.07.2011 12:55 am

turonkusu wrote:たといわたしが、人々の言葉や御使たちの言葉を語っても、もし愛がなければ、わたしは、やかましい鐘や騒がしい鐃鉢と同じである

question here is simple. 御使 this 2 kanji mean angel based on the bible ......
Yes and no, 御使 means messenger. In the Bible aren't angels supposed to be the Christian god's messengers?

From Wikipedia;
Angels are messengers of God in the Bible. ........

Etymology
The word angel in English is a fusion of the Old English word engel (with a hard g) and the Old French angele. Both derive from the Latin angelus which in turn is the romanization of the ancient Greek ἄγγελος (angelos), "messenger". ......
If you look at the various English translations of the Bible you will find some actually use messenger in place of angel.
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NileCat
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by NileCat » Mon 02.07.2011 8:24 am

1 Corinthians 13-1

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.”

I’ll leave it to experts. :)

血まみれ剣術師
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by 血まみれ剣術師 » Mon 02.07.2011 11:58 am

There are members of many religions on this website, but you might be better off asking on a forum or in a place where there are more people of the same religion.

Few suggestions:
Missionaries in Japan
Catholic
Crosswalk
Google :D

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hyperconjugated
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by hyperconjugated » Mon 02.07.2011 4:46 pm

血まみれ剣術師 wrote:There are members of many religions on this website, but you might be better off asking on a forum or in a place where there are more people of the same religion.

Few suggestions:
Missionaries in Japan
Catholic
Crosswalk
Google :D
He asked a translation help on a language forum, not a theological debate. The first one is fully legimate here, latter is not. Those links you posted all seem to focus on the latter one too.
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chikara
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by chikara » Mon 02.07.2011 5:35 pm

血まみれ剣術師 wrote:There are members of many religions on this website, but you might be better off asking on a forum or in a place where there are more people of the same religion. ......
Are you suggesting that as an atheist my explanation of the etymology and meaning of the English word "angel" is incorrect? :think:
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turonkusu
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by turonkusu » Mon 02.07.2011 6:01 pm

chikara wrote:Are you suggesting that as an atheist my explanation of the etymology and meaning of the English word "angel" is incorrect? :think:
On the contrary Chikara. actually that messenger explanation makes very good sense to me. and we know that Kanji is based on meaning of history behind the character. So angels are messenger's of God. So the Etymology is great. Thank you very much. Also to the rest of you. You can always count on the community. better than professional help sometimes. So even if you're atheist. Thank God for you Chikara :D

And to everyone else who helped me here. i may keep asking for you help if thats okay

turonkusu
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by turonkusu » Mon 02.07.2011 6:33 pm

鐃鉢

Okay here is another question from that same verse up there. Kanjis are gong and bowl. the verse does say gong should be there but it was kinda funny to me that bowl should be there. After a little research i found out that there are this things called singing bowls or suzu bowls. in a way the kaji would sorta make sense. the verse says a "noisy gong" or in japanese a "noisy suzu bowl" or such :P which gives to understand that it should sound pretty which it does actually : ) but if its noisy then it sound ugly. Questions are. how do you read it? and why do you figure i didn't find this 2 kanji together online and I'm having to guess. Is it like maybe because is a very peculiar word?

turonkusu
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by turonkusu » Mon 02.07.2011 7:41 pm

血まみれ剣術師 wrote:On the contrary sir, I find there to be no debate at all.
hyperconjugated wrote:
血まみれ剣術師 wrote:There are members of many religions on this website, but you might be better off asking on a forum or in a place where there are more people of the same religion.

Few suggestions:
Missionaries in Japan
Catholic
Crosswalk
Google :D
He asked a translation help on a language forum, not a theological debate. The first one is fully legimate here, latter is not. Those links you posted all seem to focus on the latter one too.
I should say though. Thanks for those links. I may find they useful anyway : )

血まみれ剣術師
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by 血まみれ剣術師 » Mon 02.07.2011 7:55 pm

No problem at all. :) I like helping out people in whatever way I can. :D

turonkusu wrote:I should say though. Thanks for those links. I may find they useful anyway :)

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Dustin
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by Dustin » Mon 02.07.2011 8:09 pm

I'll have to point out, I visited the above links and none of them really seemed to be very useful for the original question at hand.

While things such as religion and politics are generally off limits in the forums ( for obvious reasons ) just the discussion of specific vocab used within them is fine. As long as nobody gets into discussing the religions themselves past what's needed to understand the kanji or vocab within them as I have seen done here, then it's fairly safe to ask this sort of question.

:D

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chikara
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by chikara » Mon 02.07.2011 8:14 pm

血まみれ剣術師 wrote:*post removed*
Yes.
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Dustin
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by Dustin » Mon 02.07.2011 8:23 pm

chikara wrote:
血まみれ剣術師 wrote:*post removed*
Yes.

Gone now, Agreed it was best to get rid of it :)

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chikara
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Re: Japanese Bible!

Post by chikara » Mon 02.07.2011 8:45 pm

turonkusu wrote:鐃鉢

Okay here is another question from that same verse up there. Kanjis are gong and bowl. the verse does say gong should be there but it was kinda funny to me that bowl should be there. After a little research i found out that there are this things called singing bowls or suzu bowls. in a way the kaji would sorta make sense. the verse says a "noisy gong" or in japanese a "noisy suzu bowl" or such :P which gives to understand that it should sound pretty which it does actually : ) but if its noisy then it sound ugly. Questions are. how do you read it? and why do you figure i didn't find this 2 kanji together online and I'm having to guess. Is it like maybe because is a very peculiar word?
I don't believe it means a "suzu bowl" (called a "Tibetan bowl" or simply "singing bowl" in this country). According to Wikipedia 鐃鉢 (にょうはち) is a Buddhist cymbal.
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