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houhin vs houbin

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houhin vs houbin

Postby Qaantar » Sun 12.26.2010 11:01 pm

This question is a bit... microscopic, but I would certainly appreciate any insight.

In the realm of tea, there exists a type of teapot called a 宝瓶, sometimes rendered 泡瓶.

People usually refer to these pots as ほうひん (houhin). But oddly, the character 瓶 seems to be rendered びん in every other word (or かめ when used alone referring to earthenware pots). For example, you may be familiar with 花瓶 (kabin, a flower vase) or 鉄瓶 (tetsubin; an iron kettle).

The Wikipedia page on kyuusu (急須, a type of teapot; a houhin is basically a kyuusu without a handle) uses *both* kana renderings (houhin and houbin) on the same page. A search on Yahoo Japan yields many more hits in favor of houhin than houbin.

Does anybody have any more supporting information that might help me make sense of why this is the way it is? I have a feeling that the ひん pronunciation comes from something older, but I really have no idea....

Edit: I should add, I am well familiar with changes to words in compounds (e.g., たんす versus ちゃだんす). This houhin/houbin example would appear to be the reverse of that trend, which is why I wonder if 'hin' is something from something older...
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby NileCat » Mon 12.27.2010 8:29 am

It is a kind of technical term that average people usually don’t use.
I don’t think many Japanese people except for those who are familiar with 茶道 or 煎茶道 even know the word.

In terms of kanji, the original one seems to be 泡瓶. (Maybe) centuries after it was originally imported from China, people started using 宝 because it looks fancy. And I suppose the original pronunciation was ほうひん. But this kind of imported word from China usually has a bit confusing history, generally speaking. The original Chinese word could have been different. Something like…well…karaoke. You pronounce it like karao-key as a Japanese word, don’t you? In Japan, we pronounce it like karao-ket. So the Japanese word might have been coined a thousand years ago. And I assume they wrote it like はうひん. And in the long history, the sound may have been changed because of the reason you pointed out.
Just my two cents. Note that this isn’t reliable information.

EDIT:
Also, I had a personal impression that the person who wrote the wikipadia page is not that familiar with...well...acurate academic writings. (microscopically speaking :) )
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby Qaantar » Mon 12.27.2010 8:57 pm

NileCat -- thank you very much!

With these sorts of obscure words, it's really hard for me to tell what's going on. And I am often suspicious of 茶-related information, because it seems much of it originates from tea vendors, who may or may not be telling the truth...!

So knowing that it's not a common word is very useful. I appreciate all the information you provided, even if you don't think it's reliable :wink:

NileCat wrote:Also, I had a personal impression that the person who wrote the wikipadia page is not that familiar with...well...acurate academic writings. (microscopically speaking :) )


Ha! Too funny. I thought the 急須 section was oddly written, but I have difficulty with telling the tone....
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby furrykef » Mon 12.27.2010 9:45 pm

NileCat wrote:You pronounce it like karao-key as a Japanese word, don’t you? In Japan, we pronounce it like karao-ket.

Nah, we mangle it more than that. We usually say "carry oh key". :P
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby Qaantar » Mon 12.27.2010 10:00 pm

furrykef wrote:
NileCat wrote:You pronounce it like karao-key as a Japanese word, don’t you? In Japan, we pronounce it like karao-ket.

Nah, we mangle it more than that. We usually say "carry oh key". :P


And every time I try to pronounce it correctly, I just get quizzical looks... :lol:
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby NileCat » Wed 02.16.2011 12:40 pm

jimfaster wrote:In Jaonii HOUHIN is not a popular dish, shibridashi is already unique. It amazes me that in Europe there is interest in such objects

Where or what is Jaonii? I googled it but only result I got seems like a name of a glacier…
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby chikara » Wed 02.16.2011 6:11 pm

NileCat wrote:
jimfaster wrote:In Jaonii HOUHIN is not a popular dish, shibridashi is already unique. It amazes me that in Europe there is interest in such objects

Where or what is Jaonii? I googled it but only result I got seems like a name of a glacier…

I suspect it is a misspelling of the Polish "Japonii". Shiboridashi is also misspelt.

If you put the following through Google Translate from Polish to English you get exactly what jimfaster-san posted.

HOUHIN a nie HOUBIN
sayama
2010/12/13 06:43:40
W Jaonii HOUHIN nie jest popularnym naczyniem , shibridashi to juz unikat. Zadziwia mnie ze w Europie jest zainteresowanie takimi przedmiotami

:o
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby furrykef » Wed 02.16.2011 6:54 pm

chikara wrote:If you put the following through Google Translate from Polish to English you get exactly what jimfaster-san posted.

Perhaps jimfaster-san ought to reconsider that "Native language: English" on his profile, then. ;)
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby chikara » Wed 02.16.2011 7:30 pm

furrykef wrote:
chikara wrote:If you put the following through Google Translate from Polish to English you get exactly what jimfaster-san posted.

Perhaps jimfaster-san ought to reconsider that "Native language: English" on his profile, then. ;)

I'm not sure what their native language would be. If it is Polish yet their English is good enough to participate on an English speaking forum then why would they be taking the results of Google Translate verbatim?

They have shown a propensity to use Google Translate with no regard to how natural the translation may sound.

Of their three posts so far two have been straight out of Google Translate and the third appears to contradict the answer in the previous post made by a native Japanese speaker.

I am not sure what game they are playing at. :?
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Re: houhin vs houbin

Postby becki_kanou » Thu 02.17.2011 10:24 pm

chikara wrote:I am not sure what game they are playing at. :?


They were a spammer in waiting and their posts have been removed.
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