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~からには、~以上は どういう違いますか

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~からには、~以上は どういう違いますか

Postby ThePacster » Wed 03.16.2011 3:30 pm

皆さん、こんばんは

I've been steadily trying to work through my grammar books studying to hopefully pass JLPT 2 this year, and coming across these two I feel really stumped. I have two different grammar books and their meanings appear nearly Identical, and although I spoke with my teacher trying to distinguish the two, in the end I suppose I don't understand as well as I thought. I would wait until I go back to school and ask, but due to current circumstances in Japan, well, let's not discuss that shall we? :) Anywho, I'll write down what I know based on what I talked over with my teachers and these books, and perhaps you guys can help shed some light no this.

~以上は
「~べきだ」、「~なければならない」、「~たい」、「~はずだ」、「~だろう」など
話し手の強い意思(intent)、推量(conjecture)、判断(judgement)を表す文が来る。

~からには
「~べきだ」、「~なければならない」などの義務(obligation)や
「~たい」、「~しよう」などの決意(determination)を表す表現が来る

*~以上は
基本的に客観的に状態を考える

*~からには
自分の意志や意見で状態を考える

On a slightly related note, while doing a review I messed up and felt like I was back at square one. Here's the question:

日本に日本語の勉強に来た以上は、(  )。
a.) 上手になれると思う
b.) 上手になって帰りたい
c.) 頑張っている
d.) 旅行もするつもりだ

c. and d. seemed obviously wrong to me, but both a. and b. look like they fit. The answer turned out to be b., but I can't see why a. would not work. In my mind it looks like conjecture (推量?) but it seems that's not the case.

After lots of browsing on the net I also could not find any distinction in how they're used except for one claim that they have the same meaning, except one is used in writing while the other is used in speaking.

Any help with this is greatly appreciated.
ThePacster
 
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Re: ~からには、~以上は どういう違いますか

Postby NileCat » Tue 03.22.2011 5:54 am

Firstly, let me answer to this question.
日本に日本語の勉強に来た以上は、(  )。
a.) 上手になれると思う
b.) 上手になって帰りたい
c.) 頑張っている
d.) 旅行もするつもりだ

c. and d. seemed obviously wrong to me, but both a. and b. look like they fit. The answer turned out to be b., but I can't see why a. would not work. In my mind it looks like conjecture (推量?) but it seems that's not the case.

In order to explain it, let me use the definition you wrote in your post.
~以上は
「~べきだ」、「~なければならない」、「~たい」、「~はずだ」、「~だろう」など
話し手の強い意思(intent)、推量(conjecture)、判断(judgement)を表す文が来る。

And let me revise it.
~以上は
「~べきだ」、「~なければならない」、「~たい」、「~はずだ」、「~だろう」などを伴って
話し手の強い意思(intent)、強い(確固たる)推量(conjecture)、強い意志や確固たる推量に基づいた判断(judgement)を表す文の条件節に用いられる

Why a. in the question is wrong? --- That’s because it is only a simple conjecture.

Regarding the difference between the two, your definition sounds perfectly reasonable to me although in many cases they are interchangeable.
*~以上は
基本的に客観的に状態を考える

*~からには
自分の意志や意見で状態を考える

日本に住んでいる以上は日本語を話すべきだ。(objective)
日本に住んでいるからには日本語を話すべきだ(と思う)。(subjective)
The former sounds more strict and coercive than the latter. That’s why some explain that the latter is more colloquial. Some would use the latter as a “softened version” of the former. But we use the former in conversation as well when we want to be “strict and coercive”.

EDIT:
約束した以上は守ってもらわなくちゃ。
約束したからには守ってもらわなくちゃ。
In this case, the subtle difference in nuance would have some similarity of the one which exists in between “you must” and "you have to" and “you should”.(The degree varies according to the situation or the tone) But it’s not that different.
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Re: ~からには、~以上は どういう違いますか

Postby ThePacster » Tue 03.22.2011 10:15 am

As I suspected. Thanks so much for the detailed response. I think it'll sink in a lot easier now.
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Re: ~からには、~以上は どういう違いますか

Postby amochan » Sun 03.27.2011 2:44 pm

Hello! I am new here... just joined!

i thought I would try to specifically talk about why a. doesn't work here...

When 以上 is used, it kind of gives the sentence the feeling of "having gone to the trouble of doing that, ..." or "having been given such a situation already, ..."
For example, one might say, この世に生まれついた以上、意味ある人生を生きていくべきだ
That (in addition to the directly translated meaning) would have the deeper meaning of something like "since I have already been blessed with being born into this world, I really should live it to the fullest"

So back to your question, 日本に日本語の勉強に来た以上は kind of means, having gone to the trouble of travelling all the way to Japan to learn Japanese...
So a. "I think I will become good at it" would sound really weird!
いでや、この世に生れては、願はしかるべきことこそ多かめれ。
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