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Did I learn from reading this?

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Did I learn from reading this?

Postby kentaku_sama » Sat 05.21.2011 5:36 pm

I read this from the japanese Wikipedia and ACTUALLY LEARNED!! up until now I've never been able to read anything native level but this got me so excited that I can actually read wikipedia some now while looking up some words in a dictionary of course. I still have a long way to go but I'm half way there :D ! This is what I read:

波ダッシュ(なみダッシュ、wave dash、swung dash)とは、約物のひとつで、波線「〜」[1]のことである。ダッシュ(—)の波形であることからそう呼ばれる。この記号の読み方は一般にあまり知られておらず、波線(なみせん)や波(なみ)、にょろ、また俗にミミズ、ナメクジと呼ばれることもある。

日本語における用法の多くはダッシュとしての用法と長音符としての用法であり、中国語などでも同じことが言える。

コンピュータ上で波ダッシュの文字を扱う際、しばしば音声記号等として用いられるチルダ(~、~)と混同・混用されるが、誤用である

Instead of translating it, I'll tell you what I learned to see if I understood it correctly:

The wave dash is called a swung dash, a wave dash or a namidasshu.
It's called hasen when used as a punctuation mark.
Being that the dash is a waveform probably gave it that name.
Some not generally known names for it are nami, namesen or nyoro.
Some slang names for it are mimizu or namekuji.
In japanese, the namidasshu is used as a long-vowel symbol or dash, in chinese it is said to be used the same.

Now this last sentence is hard to understand, I wish someone could explain it to me but all I can make out of it is: On computers, in case of handeling the namidasshu character, a blinking sound was used implace of it, (something about confused), (something about incorrect use.) But I was impressed I could learn that from japanese only! :D
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Re: Did I learn from reading this?

Postby blutorange » Sun 05.22.2011 1:26 am

kentaku_sama wrote:Up until now I've never been able to read anything native level but this got me so excited that I can actually read wikipedia some now while looking up some words in a dictionary of course.

同意。
kentaku_sama wrote:コンピュータ上で波ダッシュの文字を扱う際、しばしば音声記号等として用いられるチルダ(~、~)と混同・混用されるが、誤用である
On computers, in case of handling the namidasshu character, a blinking sound was used implace of it, (something about confused), (something about incorrect use.) But I was impressed I could learn that from japanese only! :D

The first part is correct. It is saying something about "when using the wave dash on a PC". As for the 2nd part, しばしば(屡々,数々) does not mean "(on-mim) blinking repeatedly", but "often" or "frequently". The sentence then translates to "It is often confused with the tilde(~) character which is used as a 音声記号等、but that is an incorrect usage."
I think when you know this and read the sentence again, you will see how it means that. The last thing to remain is the meaning of 音声記号等, this is some sort of technical term, something like "phonetic transcription". (http://www.kmatsum.info/papers/kaken03- ... 00603w.pdf)
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Re: Did I learn from reading this?

Postby kentaku_sama » Sun 05.22.2011 9:54 pm

Arigatou dude, I get it now and this helps me :D It seems one difficult thing about reading japanese is thinking backwards because entire clauses can be used as adjectives like:

しばしば音声記号等として用いられるチルデ = The often confused tilde 
But can you explain the と混同・混用されるが I don't get what the ・is for and what it represents. Is it like saying confused and mixed up, can I have some more examples of this dot thing.
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Re: Did I learn from reading this?

Postby blutorange » Mon 05.23.2011 10:01 am

kentaku_sama wrote:It seems one difficult thing about reading japanese is thinking backwards because entire clauses can be used as adjectives like:
しばしば音声記号等として用いられるチルデ = The often confused tilde

When I managed to get to "tilde", I must think backwards as well to get the "often confused" part. Not to mention
"Often used as a phonetic symbol and the like, the so-called tilde is written as a waveform."
You see, this phenomenon exists in English as well, you just do not notice it because you are used to it.

kentaku_sama wrote:But can you explain the と混同・混用されるが I don't get what the ・is for and what it represents. Is it like saying confused and mixed up, can I have some more examples of this dot thing.

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... Interpunct
The "・" bears approximately the same significance as the following symbols often used in English: "&" or "," or "/"
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Re: Did I learn from reading this?

Postby kentaku_sama » Tue 05.24.2011 11:31 am

So 混同・混用される。 Basically is taking both words and using one sareru ending?
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Re: Did I learn from reading this?

Postby blutorange » Tue 05.24.2011 1:28 pm

Basically [it] is taking both words and using one sareru ending?

Using the term "sareru ending" is slightly confusing/misleading I think, if anything you should think of it as "Z sareru" where Z happens to be Z="(X and Y)", but other than that, do not think too much about sentence structure/grammar here.
Rephrasing "・" using Japanese words is possible, for example:
混同・混用される
=混同または混用される
=混同される。そして混用もされる
=混同や混用される

Lastly, compare the use of "・" to my usage of "/" in the first sentence of this post.
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