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~した~

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~した~

Postby Michael_SD » Mon 06.06.2011 12:36 pm

                              パーティーの会話

     マイクはアメリカの留学生で、今学年は東京の有名な大学の国際部で、日本語や日本の経済のコースを取っている。東京ではホストファミリーを見つけるのが難しく,アパートに住んでいる。アパートに住んでいると、いつでも好きなときにパーティーができるので、パーティーの好きなマイクは、よくパーティーをする。大きくてやかましいパーティーではなくて、親しい友達と何人か呼んで、飲んだり食べたりしながら話すだけの、簡単なパーティーである。そんな時には、隣に住んでいる日本人の大学生「ヒロ」をいつも呼ぶことにしている。「ヒロ」は、本当の名前は博だが、アメリカ人と付き合う時には「ヒロ」というニックネームを使っている。彼は、マイクの留学している大学の経済学部の学生で、普通の日本人よりはっきり自分の意見を言うので、アメリカ人のマイクには分かりやすく、付き合いやすい。
     今晩は、マイクの日本経済の教授、前田先生と、そのクラスのアメリカ人留学生を何人か読んでパーティーをするので、ヒロにも来てもらった。マイクのクラスメートたちは、まだ日本語が下手なので、ヒロに英語で日本の習慣についていろいろ質問し、ヒロはなかなか上手な英語でそれに答えていた。学生たちが来てから三十分ぐらいしたころ、前田先生が着いた。先生も入って、ディスカッションが続いた。しかし、マイクはそのうち、あることに気づき始めた。英語のヂスカッションは続いているのに、ヒロがほとんど何も言わなくなってしまったのだ。話が日米関係のことになって、マイクがヒロの意見を聞くと、ヒロは前田先生の方へ見て、「どうぞ」と言っただけで、何も言おうとしない。結局、先生とアメリカ人だけの話し合いになってしまった。ヒロはなぜ急に静かになってしまったのだろうか。

That is from a textbook I go back to from time to time as a self-taught student. I wrote the whole passage out for context.

I understand everything, because it is simple and easy to read, except for two things.

1. I still can't understand at all why したappears there.

2. Is the question that the very final sentence of the passage asks an actual interrogatory sentence -- does it expect the reader to come to a conclusion, or apply their (supposed) knowledge of Japanese social customs (seniority, etc.) to answer the question? Did Hiro (Maeda?) saying dōzo have any relevance to answering that question? Or is it merely rhetorical, asking for the reader's opinion?


Thanks in advance.
Michael_SD
 
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Re: ~した~

Postby richvh » Mon 06.06.2011 1:11 pm

1. I still can't understand at all why したappears there.

Seems to indicate passage of time. ALC has a few examples of a similar usage:
Code: Select all
15分したらまた見に来るから、それまでにこれを終わらせようね。
I'll come back in fifteen minutes, so (please) get it done by then.

Code: Select all
はいはい、どうぞ。30分したらここに戻ってきて会うことにしよう。
Fine. Go ahead. I'll meet you back here in 30 minutes.


2. Is the question that the very final sentence of the passage asks an actual interrogatory sentence -- does it expect the reader to come to a conclusion, or apply their (supposed) knowledge of Japanese social customs (seniority, etc.) to answer the question? Did Hiro (Maeda?) saying dōzo have any relevance to answering that question? Or is it merely rhetorical, asking for the reader's opinion?


Hiro said "douzo" to Prof. Maeda. I think it's rhetorical.
Richard VanHouten
ゆきの物語
richvh
 
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Re: ~した~

Postby Michael_SD » Wed 06.08.2011 2:37 pm

richvh wrote:
1. I still can't understand at all why したappears there.

Seems to indicate passage of time. ALC has a few examples of a similar usage:
Code: Select all
15分したらまた見に来るから、それまでにこれを終わらせようね。
I'll come back in fifteen minutes, so (please) get it done by then.

Code: Select all
はいはい、どうぞ。30分したらここに戻ってきて会うことにしよう。
Fine. Go ahead. I'll meet you back here in 30 minutes.


2. Is the question that the very final sentence of the passage asks an actual interrogatory sentence -- does it expect the reader to come to a conclusion, or apply their (supposed) knowledge of Japanese social customs (seniority, etc.) to answer the question? Did Hiro (Maeda?) saying dōzo have any relevance to answering that question? Or is it merely rhetorical, asking for the reader's opinion?


Hiro said "douzo" to Prof. Maeda. I think it's rhetorical.


My questions weren't of earth-shattering consequence of course, but I appreciate your taking time to shed light on them. I like your answers and as I have learned to do, I wrote them in the book on so I don't forget them.

Thanks!
Michael_SD
 
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Location: San Diego
Native language: English

Re: ~した~

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.08.2011 4:02 pm

Hi Michael_SD,

I think that the meaning/function of “~した” is now clear to you thanks to richvh’s explanation.
Let me try to give you a “tip” to memorize it.

Try to translate this sentence into Japanese.
“Time passes”

There are many ways to do this. But the point is that what the appropriate verb to describe the passage of time is.

時間 → たつ
     過ぎる
     流れる
     経過する

And please take a look at the last verb “経過する”. It’s a kind of stiff word. But the meaning/function of this word is exactly same as the “する” in your example sentence. We don’t say “時間がする” but when some specific amount of time is indicated, we say “1時間すると” or “2時間したら” usually only when it is followed by some fact that happens AFTER that. And it sounds more casual/informal/natural compared to “経過する”.

30分ぐらいしたころ = 30分ぐらい経過したころ

Which means, in other words, the “する” can be assumed as an abbreviation of “経過する” in this kind of sentence. (This is not a matter of grammar. This is only a matter of practical usage)
Although we use this verb even in semi-official writings today, I personally think the origin of this usage was kind of colloquial. This verb "する" in Japanese is a unique word. It is sometimes used like a joker in card games (like "do" in English).

Would this “theory” be helpful for somebody? (---Well, I have no idea.) :)
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Re: ~した~

Postby Michael_SD » Mon 06.13.2011 3:53 pm

NileCat wrote:Hi Michael_SD,

I think that the meaning/function of “~した” is now clear to you thanks to richvh’s explanation.
Let me try to give you a “tip” to memorize it.

Try to translate this sentence into Japanese.
“Time passes”

There are many ways to do this. But the point is that what the appropriate verb to describe the passage of time is.

時間 → たつ
     過ぎる
     流れる
     経過する

And please take a look at the last verb “経過する”. It’s a kind of stiff word. But the meaning/function of this word is exactly same as the “する” in your example sentence. We don’t say “時間がする” but when some specific amount of time is indicated, we say “1時間すると” or “2時間したら” usually only when it is followed by some fact that happens AFTER that. And it sounds more casual/informal/natural compared to “経過する”.

30分ぐらいしたころ = 30分ぐらい経過したころ

Which means, in other words, the “する” can be assumed as an abbreviation of “経過する” in this kind of sentence. (This is not a matter of grammar. This is only a matter of practical usage)
Although we use this verb even in semi-official writings today, I personally think the origin of this usage was kind of colloquial. This verb "する" in Japanese is a unique word. It is sometimes used like a joker in card games (like "do" in English).

Would this “theory” be helpful for somebody? (---Well, I have no idea.) :)

I like your explanation too. Your examples reinforce my knowledge, and I will work through them so the concept sinks in. I'll put them in my book, too.

As always, thanks for your help in this question.
Michael_SD
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu 01.21.2010 3:06 pm
Location: San Diego
Native language: English


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