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how do you read 何ぞ?

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how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby Cath » Tue 06.14.2011 3:02 pm

Hi!

According to the Denshi Jisho dictionary, 何ぞ can be read as either なぞ, なにぞ or なんぞ. They all mean the same thing, but how do you know which one to use?

the sam goes for 如何 which can be read as どう, いか or いかが


Thank you =)

Cath
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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby NileCat » Tue 06.14.2011 9:23 pm

Well, could you tell me why and where did you come across the word? And that if your dictionary didn't answer to your question?
Dictionaries in general have a bunch of words’ definition. And usually they have the brief explanation about the usage.
For instance, if you look up Yahoo Dictionary,

なん-ぞ
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... &pagenum=1

な-ぞ 
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... &pagenum=1

なに-ぞ
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81 ... &dname=0ss

Aren’t these definitions helpful to your question?

いかが
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81 ... =0&dtype=0

いかん
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?p=%E3%81 ... =0&dtype=0

どう
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF- ... pagenum=11

Although I myself am not a dictionary-lover,if you wonder how do you know which one to use, the first step would be to understand the meaning/usage of each word in the dictionary. (At least one of them. Then you’d see the different usages, I think)
Please feel free to ask further questions.
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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby jimbreen » Tue 06.14.2011 11:18 pm

Cath wrote:Hi!

According to the Denshi Jisho dictionary, 何ぞ can be read as either なぞ, なにぞ or なんぞ. They all mean the same thing, but how do you know which one to use?


Denshi Jisho uses the same dictionary as WWWJDIC, etc., where it says:

何ぞ; 奚 【なんぞ; なにぞ; なぞ】 (exp) (1) something; .....

and in the tradition of dictionaries, the first reading is the most common one. In fact most dictionaries don't even mention なにぞ or なぞ.

Denshi Jisho in fact uses an old legacy format, in which it is broken up into 6 combinations, and the ordering of the senses is lost. I have suggested to Kim (author of Denshi Jisho) that he use the newer format. He says he intends to do that.

the sam goes for 如何 which can be read as どう, いか or いかが


That's a bit the same. I never write 如何; just どう or いかが, and usually the former.

Jim
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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.15.2011 2:34 am

jimbreen wrote:
the sam goes for 如何 which can be read as どう, いか or いかが


That's a bit the same. I never write 如何; just どう or いかが, and usually the former.

Excuse me but I'm afraid that's not the case here. If the word comes alone in modern writings such as personal letters, nine out of ten would try to read it いかが as the first choice/possibility.


EDIT:
In the most “common” usage, you can assume いかが as the polite/formal version of どう in most cases.
e.g.
どうしましょう vs. いかがしましょう
どうですか vs. いかがですか

Now, which read do you think is appropriate?
みなさま如何お過ごしですか?
お加減は如何でしょう

When it is rendered using kanji (not kana, purposely), it is initially considered to be いかが although it CAN read どう grammatically speaking.
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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.15.2011 5:43 am

@Cath

Rereading my first reply to you, I realized it might have sounded very blunt, which is not I intended to. :)
Please understand that’s because things are not that easy as you might imagine.

To begin with, the word 何ぞ (written in kanji) is not a common expression, I have to say. This word could be considered to be:

a) Highly colloquial version of など. It is usually rendered in hiragana.
e.g. 私なんぞただの平社員ですから。
However, if you find it in serious literature or something written, say, 100 years ago, it could be rendered like 私何ぞ只の平社員ですから。
But, it is usually read ‘わたしなぞ’ these days because the proper read is なぞ and ‘なんぞ’ is considered to be a colloquial/casual version of なぞ.
(proper) など → なぞ → なんぞ (colloquial/slangy)

b) Modern usage of a very proper archaic expression.
e.g. 弊社何ぞに御配慮頂きました事厚く御礼申し上げます。(なぞ)

c) One of the archaic expressions that have survived for some reason.
e.g. 何ぞの地へか赴かん。(なにぞ)(=いづく=何処)

d) A kind of dialect
e.g. そこらに何ぞないんかね? (なんぞ)

The point is, in short, it’s virtually impossible to answer to your question plainly. That’s what I meant to say. :shock:
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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby Cath » Wed 06.15.2011 9:41 am

Thank you everyone! I think I understand more now. As I'm studying on my own I don't really have anyone else to ask, but I find this forum very helpful.

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Re: how do you read 何ぞ?

Postby jimbreen » Wed 06.15.2011 8:11 pm

NileCat wrote:
jimbreen wrote:
the sam goes for 如何 which can be read as どう, いか or いかが

That's a bit the same. I never write 如何; just どう or いかが, and usually the former.

Excuse me but I'm afraid that's not the case here. If the word comes alone in modern writings such as personal letters, nine out of ten would try to read it いかが as the first choice/possibility.

Note, I said "write". It's important that languages learners get the *word* right first, and the orthography later.
NileCat wrote:EDIT:
In the most “common” usage, you can assume いかが as the polite/formal version of どう in most cases.

Indeed. Hence the dictionary entry: どう(P); いかが(P); いか 《如何》 (adv) (uk) ...
NileCat wrote:Now, which read do you think is appropriate?
みなさま如何お過ごしですか?
お加減は如何でしょう

When it is rendered using kanji (not kana, purposely), it is initially considered to be いかが although it CAN read どう grammatically speaking.

The moment I see things like お加減 and お過ごし, the 如何 maps to いかが.
I still write いかが/どう though.

Jim
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