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Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

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Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby TheAristocrat » Wed 06.29.2011 6:32 am

Hi,
I aim to finally deal with these pesky varmints once and for all, and after nearly a year of not learning Japanese too. I have reviewed where I left off, and I still have a grasp of it, so that isn't a problem. But I'm still trying to learn to use particles. So I thought perhaps try something different. Such as making a list of all the nouns, adjectives, verbs et al that I know, and practice putting the different particles to them to get the meaning I want. For example:

I want to attach particles to the word school. So I would attach the various particles for 'to' and list their meanings. I thought that this would be a good approach as it breaks things down. Has anyone else tried this?
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby Ongakuka » Wed 06.29.2011 8:15 am

So I would attach the various particles for 'to' and list their meanings.


I didn't quite get what you mean by 'various particles for 'to.' All I can think of is に and へ, and if they mean 'to' there is no point in listing their meanings. So I probably misunderstood what you're saying here.

However, if you mean trying words with various particles; that's not a bad idea, but its more practical to just study Japanese in context. Try reading (if you're not confident, simple) Japanese say in manga or childrens stories (can be found online) or even standard fiction (you don't need to read it fast and fluently, but it serves as the best example of how to use particles correctly.)
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.29.2011 9:33 am

学校へ行く
学校に行く
学校を探す
学校は新しい
学校の先生
学校で勉強する
学校と病院がある
学校と相談する
学校や病院がある
学校か病院です
学校から帰る
学校より遠い
学校が命じる
学校が好き
学校も好き
学校へも行く
学校にも行く
学校って大好き

学校なり病院なりどこへでも行く
学校だの病院だのいろいろある

あれは学校かな
学校かしら
まるで学校な感じ
学校とも言える
きっと学校だ

そう、学校さ
そう、学校よ
そう、学校ね

学校まで行く
この町には学校ばかりある
学校しかない
学校だけだ

学校ほど大きくない
学校くらい大きい

学校こそ大事
学校でも教える
学校さえ行けない

...What else?  :)
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby Ongakuka » Wed 06.29.2011 10:15 am

学校とともに(解決策を見つけたいです)

学校とか

ただの学校

学校のみ

学校を出かける X 学校から出かける O

学校を出る? http://homepage3.nifty.com/recipe_okiba/nifongo/022.htm
Last edited by Ongakuka on Wed 06.29.2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.29.2011 10:21 am

Cool!
But...
Ongakuka, are your sure with "学校を出かける" ?
:think:
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby Ongakuka » Wed 06.29.2011 10:23 am

学校から遠い

学校からは遠い

禁じられると思うよ、ここは学校だし

(おまけ):

間違えた!あれは学校だぞ!

学校だぜ!

学校好きだわ

Nilecatさん>> oops! I meant 学校を出る sorry for the confusing. I'll edit the post to make it clear. Thanks for pointing that out!
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby NileCat » Wed 06.29.2011 10:25 am

:applause: :) :applause:
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby furrykef » Wed 06.29.2011 10:28 am

Japanese particles seem to be notorious for some reason, but I've never found them trickier than prepositions in any other language. The only difference is they come after rather than before the words. Consider English, which is a total mess here. Where do you live? You might live in your house (but at home), at 742 Evergreen Terrace (but on Evergreen Terrace if you don't give the house number!), in Springfield, in whatever state Springfield is in, in the United States, on Earth, in the Milky Way Galaxy, in the universe. Spanish would simply use "en" for every one of these, instead of having the exceptions; likewise, Japanese simply uses に. So it's not just Japanese that's screwy. ;)

On the other hand, there are, of course, situations where Japanese would distinguish particles that English speakers do not. The infamous は versus が isn't really an example because in reality は is its own thing entirely (consider how it can also replace を, occur after adverbs like 今日, attach to particles such as に and で, etc.), but に versus へ and に versus で are good examples. The way I'd study these is to just look at example sentences and pay attention to which particle is being used and why. Make flash cards for Anki out of them if you like (this is how I learned much of my Japanese grammar). Just remember that it's really not all that complicated and you'll nail your particle usage at least 95% of the time. As for that remaining 5%, well... practice makes perfect!
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby Ongakuka » Wed 06.29.2011 10:39 am

instead of having the exceptions


I don't mean to be off topic (it's meant to be Japanese after all,) but I don't consider those exceptions.

'on' suggests that the subject (lets say the speaker) is above the location. So it couldn't be used for the milky way or a specific house number, because the speaker lives inside the galaxy and inside their own house.

Compared to 'in' and 'on,' 'At' is more ambiguous, but usually implies a specific location (i.e 'I'm at the shop') though people will sometimes use it incorrectly in a colloquial manner (same with the others I suppose.)

Anyway furrykefさん your point was a very valid one and I had no intention of undermining it, I was only challenging that one quote about 'exceptions.' :sweatdrop:
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Re: Dreaded Particles! A New Approach?

Postby furrykef » Wed 06.29.2011 1:48 pm

I dunno, prepositions can still be pretty arbitrary. For instance, in English we say "in Rome", but "in Italy"; in Italian, they say "a Roma" but "in Italia". You could argue that there is some fundamental difference between Italian "a" and English "at", but I think it ultimately just boils down to different languages having different conventions.
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